Small request:
Brian Covey
bcovey at omnigroup.com
Fri Feb 15 19:35:00 PST 2002
For those of us that get the digest, attachments get converted to pages
and pages of gibberish, and it's also a huge burden on our mail server -
that image gets sent out hundreds of times. The Outliner list isn't all
that large yet, but it's a good habit I try to cultivate in others. =)
It's preferable to post an image to your iDisk or some other public
spot, and then include a link in your message...
Sincerely,
Brian Covey
Support Manager
Omni Group
On Friday, February 15, 2002, at 01:02 PM, omnioutliner-users-
request at omnigroup.com wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Think Different about Your New Outliner (Thibodeaux, M. MAJ ENG)
> 2. Re: Think Different about Your New Outliner (Ted Goranson)
> 3. Re: Back-to-Basic feature suggestions (Brian Covey)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> From: "Thibodeaux, M. MAJ ENG" <Maxwell.Thibodeaux at usma.edu>
> To: omnioutliner-users at omnigroup.com
> Subject: Think Different about Your New Outliner
> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:30:37 -0500
>
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> Ted Goranson writes:
>
>
>
> ... I recommend thinking about how you would work if you could create
>
> anything, rather than starting with a shrink-wrapped app and getting
>
> used to it. You'll be surprised at what you discover about yourself.
>
>
>
> I'm partial to your suggestion. Let us think different, but at the same
> time
> I want most of the insanely great functionality of More before the other
> features.
>
>
>
> More is the telos that OO should eventually become, but let us think
> more
> about what the ideal outlining tool does.
>
>
>
> Now, I hold great hopes for OO, but only if it avoids trying to clone
>
> MORE. There is one MORE-like feature I would like: definable styles
>
> for each level. But I would go way beyond MORE in this regard.
>
> Otherwise, MORE is only of historical interest.
>
>
>
> Isn't there any merit in More's unique features, e.g., (to clone, to
> fold,
> to insta-present, to graph, to add speaker's notes that aren't visible
> during the presentation except to the presenter etc.)
>
>
>
> Other things are important to me for a future OO, like extensibility.
>
> Like leveraging Apple's guidelines and Aqua's strengths.
>
>
>
> I agree. It should look pretty, do PDF flawlessly, and be easy to use.
>
>
>
> Let me suggest one key paradigm that I have found extremely useful,
>
> and which I would like OO designers to consider.
>
>
>
> I use outlining to write. I have lots of "ordinary" outlining tricks
>
> I use to organize and rearrange my documents from notes and thoughts
>
> to finished product. Lets call that outlining for the management of
>
> the structure OF a document. But I also use a sort of outlining IN my
>
> documents as well. These mini-outlines are usually bullets and
>
> sub-bullets. I want the same management tools for each, but clear
>
> visual cues to show the difference. Sometimes I promote an internal
>
> outline to external status and more rarely the other way. Once you
>
> use this, you will never go back, especially if each level of both
>
> types can have:
>
>
>
> Does putting these mini-outlines in the second column of OO count? More
> had
> a feature called "comments" that did this as well, but it didn't allow
> outlines inside. Perhaps OO should do this.
>
>
>
> --pointers to things outside the outline, as source pointers for
>
> future resolution
>
>
>
> This should be an OSX service right? Link to file, link to net?
>
>
>
> --conditional headers: These are headers that you would like to see
>
> in the production of the document but which are excluded at some
>
> point. A conditional header may be just extra organizational
>
> structure for the writer. In this case, just the headers are left off
>
> in certain uses. Or they may denote stuff for some limited audiences:
>
> for instance notes, annotations, or even content for some inner
>
> circle. Conditionals should be user definable and allow multiple
>
> threads.
>
>
>
> More accomplished this with "speaker's notes" no?
>
>
>
> I'll add my druthers. A change in the cursor to a hand-but a nice,
> realistic, businesslike hand when one places the cursor directly over
> bullets. As it stands now, dragging over a bullet is different than
> dragging
> over the left margin of the outline in OO. Is this kosher according to
> the
> Apple GUI guidelines?
>
>
>
> Max
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>Ted Goranson
> writes:</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Garamond><span
> style='font-size:12.0pt;font-
> family:Garamond;color:windowtext'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>... I recommend thinking about how
> you
> would work if you could create </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>anything, rather than starting
> with a
> shrink-wrapped app and getting </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>used to it. You'll be surprised at
> what
> you discover about yourself.</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>I'm partial to your suggestion. Let
> us <i><span style='font-style:italic'>think different</span></i>, but
> at the
> same time I want most of the insanely great functionality of More
> before the
> other features. </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>More is the telos that OO should
> eventually
> become, but let us think more about what the ideal outlining tool does.
> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:
> 10.0pt'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>Now, I hold great hopes for OO,
> but only
> if it avoids trying to clone </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>MORE. There is one MORE-like
> feature I would
> like: definable styles </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>for each level. But I would go way
> beyond
> MORE in this regard. </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>Otherwise, MORE is only of
> historical
> interest.</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Isn't there any merit in More's
> unique features, e.g., (to clone, to fold, to insta-present, to graph,
> to add
> speaker's notes that aren't visible during the presentation except
> to the presenter etc.)</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>Other things are important to me
> for a
> future OO, like extensibility. </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>Like leveraging Apple's guidelines
> and
> Aqua's strengths.</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>I agree. It should look pretty, do
> PDF
> flawlessly, and be easy to use.</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>Let me suggest one key paradigm
> that I
> have found extremely useful, </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>and which I would like OO
> designers to
> consider.</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>I use outlining to write. I have
> lots of
> "ordinary" outlining tricks </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>I use to organize and rearrange my
> documents from notes and thoughts </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>to finished product. Lets call that
> outlining for the management of </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>the structure OF a document. But I
> also
> use a sort of outlining IN my </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>documents as well. These
> mini-outlines are
> usually bullets and </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>sub-bullets. I want the same
> management
> tools for each, but clear </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>visual cues to show the difference.
> Sometimes I promote an internal </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>outline to external status and
> more rarely
> the other way. Once you </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>use this, you will never go back,
> especially if each level of both </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>types can have:</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Does putting these mini-outlines
> in the
> second column of OO count? More had a feature called "comments"
> that did this as well, but it didn't allow outlines inside. Perhaps OO
> should do this.</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>--pointers to things outside the
> outline,
> as source pointers for </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>future resolution</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>This should be an OSX service
> right? Link
> to file, link to net?</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>--conditional headers: These are
> headers
> that you would like to see </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>in the production of the document
> but
> which are excluded at some </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>point. A conditional header may be
> just
> extra organizational </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>structure for the writer. In this
> case,
> just the headers are left off </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>in certain uses. Or they may
> denote stuff
> for some limited audiences: </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>for instance notes, annotations,
> or even
> content for some inner </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>circle. Conditionals should be user
> definable and allow multiple </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>threads.</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>More accomplished this with
> "speaker's
> notes" no?</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>I'll add my druthers. A change in
> the cursor to a hand-but a nice, realistic, businesslike hand when one
> places the cursor directly over bullets. As it stands now, dragging
> over a
> bullet is different than dragging over the left margin of the outline
> in OO. Is
> this kosher according to the Apple GUI guidelines?</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Max</span></font></p>
>
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> style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=green face="sans serif"><span
> style='font-size:12.0pt;color:green'> </span></font></p>
>
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> ------_=_NextPart_000_01C1B59E.D80549D0--
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 00:25:24 -0500
> To: omnioutliner-users at omnigroup.com
> From: Ted Goranson <tedg at alum.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: Think Different about Your New Outliner
>
> Max--
>
>> I'm partial to your suggestion. Let us think different, but at the
>> same time I want most of the insanely great functionality of More
>> before the other features.
>
> Sure. MORE, but also Xemacs, Palimpsest and InfoDepot, each of which
> are best in their own way. Even Acta had neat capabilities missing in
> MORE. I eschew a fundamentalist focus on MORE alone. It shows a lack
> of imagination and experience with parallel paradigms. Since the mix
> of Omni and Cocoa gives us a new platform, why not revisit old
> assumptions?
>
>> ...
>> I agree. It should look pretty, do PDF flawlessly, and be easy to use.
>
> I don't think it will be possible to have a discussion at all if you
> think what we are talking about is prettiness and mere ease of use.
> The Mac way is behind much of what you like with MORE, or was a dozen
> years back. But life is more friendly now. You like the changing
> cursor but don't want dynamic contextual menus for instance? You
> don't want XML database links? You don't want smart drag and drop?
> You don't want in-line palettes? Macros? Docklet fragments? Popup
> annotations (and popup views of collapsed or folded material)?
> Hyperlinks? Multiple views? Progress tags? Draggable formatting?
> Agent-based templates? Style-based background transparency?
>
> MORE didn't even remember my partly collapsed state when re-expanded.
> Frustrating as all getout.
>
>> Does putting these mini-outlines in the second column of OO count?
>> More had a feature called "comments" that did this as well, but it
>> didn't allow outlines inside. Perhaps OO should do this.
>
> MORE's "comments" were so limited, they drove me from the product.
> And no, the second column approach wouldn't work for me. But it does
> bring up a clever notion. Can we have the "column" dynamically adjust
> at different levels, sort of a cross between columns and tabs?
>
>>> --pointers to things outside the outline, as source pointers for
>>> future resolution
>>
>> This should be an OSX service right? Link to file, link to net?
>
> That would be the crudest implementation. Richer would be the ability
> for me to control-drag a fragment from one outline (say a notes
> database) to another to create an "alias" that could be resolvable
> from a placeholder icon to a publish and subscribe-like live image
>
>>> --conditional headers:...
>>
>> More accomplished this with "speaker's notes" no?
>
> No. Not even close -- not even in the same country. Do you know
> Framemaker's conditional text feature? Any conditional type.
> Multiple, parallel types, all fully styled.
>
> (I removed your dreadful html markup and introduced the more
> outline-like quote bars.)
>
> Best, Ted
> --
> _____________
> Ted Goranson
> Advanced Enterprise Research Office
> Virtual Enterprise Framework: http://sourceforge.net/projects/alfve/
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 01:19:32 -0800
> Subject: Re: Back-to-Basic feature suggestions
> From: Brian Covey <bcovey at omnigroup.com>
> To: omnioutliner-users at omnigroup.com
>
> You may want to experiment with the "Show Info" item under the "Format"
> menu; you can style the text for the various levels that appear in the
> inspector, and all subsequently-created items of that level will take on
> those attributes.
>
> If there's something here that this doesn't cover, write up a detailed
> description and send it to omnioutliner at omnigroup.com. I'll add it to
> the database; I can't guarantee that I'll catch every message on this
> list, so if you want to be sure we see it, send to that address once
> everyone on the list has had their say...
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Brian Covey
> Support Manager
> Omni Group
>
>
> On Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 01:03 PM, omnioutliner-users-
> request at omnigroup.com wrote:
>
>> There is one MORE-like feature I would like: definable styles
>> for each level. But I would go way beyond MORE in this regard.
>> Otherwise, MORE is only of historical interest.
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
> OmniOutliner-Users mailing list
> OmniOutliner-Users at omnigroup.com
> http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/omnioutliner-users
>
>
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