From castaldo at olywa.net Wed Jan 2 11:15:59 2002 From: castaldo at olywa.net (Pat Castaldo) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Pasting lists.. Message-ID: My query/idea: I have a simple list of things to do that i have in a plain text file... the items are separated by line breaks. I want to paste or import them into outliner so that each line is a new to-do item. Any tips/hints? Or is this a feature request? If I cut and paste the whole thing into outliner, it treats it just as one big to-do. Which makes sense, but is not what I want. Maybe there could be a modified paste option-control-V (or something) that, while pasting, converts the line breaks into new items? Or is this an import-type feature. -pat. -- From morries at tassie.net.au Wed Jan 2 12:32:09 2002 From: morries at tassie.net.au (Craig Morris) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Gantt charts Message-ID: <04A83437-FFC0-11D5-B9C4-0030654E4D78@tassie.net.au> I am new to the list so apologise if this has been sought. I would love the ability to time scale my outlines and to generate gantt charts. Is this likely? Craig From greg at omnigroup.com Wed Jan 2 12:42:01 2002 From: greg at omnigroup.com (Greg Titus) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Pasting lists.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1BA319B6-FFC1-11D5-A447-003065B22C50@omnigroup.com> On Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 11:15 AM, Pat Castaldo wrote: > > I have a simple list of things to do that i have in a plain text > file... the items are separated by line breaks. > > I want to paste or import them into outliner so that each line is a new > to-do item. > > Any tips/hints? Or is this a feature request? > > If I cut and paste the whole thing into outliner, it treats it just as > one big to-do. Which makes sense, but is not what I want. Maybe there > could be a modified paste option-control-V (or something) that, while > pasting, converts the line breaks into new items? Or is this an > import-type feature. Hi Pat, If you are currently editing an item, pasting into outliner will add the whole text to the current item (as you discovered). But if you just have an item selected and aren't editing the text, then pasting will add new items for each line in the paste (as you want). Outliner will even get the indentation structure right if you use tabs for different levels in the plain text file. To get out of editing a particular item and just select it, either click to the left of the bullet (in the gutter), or hit ESC to end editing. Or you could use command-shift-A to deselect-all. Either way, once you have no selection, or you are selecting the whole item instead of editing, just paste. Hope this helps, --Greg From tim at timhurson.com Wed Jan 2 14:58:01 2002 From: tim at timhurson.com (Tim Hurson) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Feature request Message-ID: One of the things I really loved about MORE was the ability to split a bullet into two with command return, and ocversely to concatenate two bullets with command delete. Any chance OmniOutliner will be adding those functions soon? Thanks, Tim Hurson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * In creating, the only hard thing's to begin; A grass-blade's no easier to make than an oak. James Russell Lowell (1819-1891) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /mailman/archive/omnioutliner-users/attachments/20020102/bc29c0a0/attachment.html From wjcheeseman at earthlink.net Thu Jan 3 08:10:21 2002 From: wjcheeseman at earthlink.net (Bill Cheeseman) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Feature request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 02-01-02 5:57 PM, Tim Hurson at tim@timhurson.com wrote: > One of the things I really loved about MORE was the ability to split a bullet > into two with command return, and ocversely to concatenate two bullets with > command delete. Any chance OmniOutliner will be adding those functions soon? This is really important. But so is cloning. -- Bill Cheeseman - wjcheeseman@earthlink.net Quechee Software, Quechee, Vermont, USA http://www.quecheesoftware.com The AppleScript Sourcebook - http://www.AppleScriptSourcebook.com Vermont Recipes - http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/VermontRecipes Croquet Club of Vermont - http://members.valley.net/croquetvermont -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /mailman/archive/omnioutliner-users/attachments/20020103/db5c95cf/attachment.html From greg at omnigroup.com Thu Jan 3 15:07:01 2002 From: greg at omnigroup.com (Greg Titus) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Feature request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <87F7B218-009E-11D6-A447-003065B22C50@omnigroup.com> On Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 02:57 PM, Tim Hurson wrote: > One of the things I really loved about MORE was the ability to split a > bullet into two with command return, and ocversely to concatenate two > bullets with command delete. Any chance OmniOutliner will be adding > those functions soon? I've just added the first half of this feature (splitting), and it occurs to me that it might be more natural to simply make return do this (instead of command-return). (1) If you were editing plain text and hit return in the middle of a line, it'd split the rest of the line onto a new line - this is what people generally expect to happen with the return key. (2) Microsoft Word outlines work this way. (3) We already have command-return used to insert a newline in the current item. Is anyone attached to the current behavior of return -- simply adding a new item despite where your selection is? Anyone have any arguments against a change? On another note, what would you expect to happen if you did a command-delete to concatenate when you were working with a document with multiple columns? My first impulse is to concatenate the contents of the column that you are in with the same column in the previous row, but only delete the row if all other columns are empty, if not leaving the rest of the row as is. I.e.: * xyz 1 * abc 2 turns into: * xyzabc 1 * 2 Instead of eliminating the second bullet point. Any thoughts? Thanks for the feedback, --Greg From tim at timhurson.com Thu Jan 3 16:39:00 2002 From: tim at timhurson.com (Tim Hurson) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Splitting and concatenating Message-ID: Hi Greg, you wrote: > I've just added the first half of this feature (splitting), and it > occurs to me that it might be more natural to simply make return do this > (instead of command-return). I?d be fine with a plain return doing this trick. As long as a plain return at the end of the line still got me a new, blank bullet. > On another note, what would you expect to happen if you did a > command-delete to concatenate when you were working with a document with > multiple columns? My first impulse is to concatenate the contents of the > column that you are in with the same column in the previous row, but > only delete the row if all other columns are empty, if not leaving the > rest of the row as is. Wow. This is a tough one. I love the idea of columns, but I?ve never used them in an outliner before (except in InfoDepot nee FairWitness, where they never really worked that well anyway), so I have little practical experience. Seems to me your gut is right, as long as the 2 on your example remains in the second column of the item, with the first column having become blank. Then, if I wanted to add the 2 to the 1 in the previous second column, I could either cut/past, drag, or concatenate again, this time with the cursor in the second column?? That?s my first reaction. Thanks very much, Greg, for getting on to this so quickly. It?ll make a world a difference to most of us who have been MORE addicts! Tim * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling illusion that it has been mastered. Stanley Kubrick (1928-1999 ) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /mailman/archive/omnioutliner-users/attachments/20020103/5df09bbc/attachment.html From wjcheeseman at earthlink.net Fri Jan 4 02:56:00 2002 From: wjcheeseman at earthlink.net (Bill Cheeseman) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Feature request In-Reply-To: <87F7B218-009E-11D6-A447-003065B22C50@omnigroup.com> Message-ID: on 02-01-03 6:06 PM, Greg Titus at greg@omnigroup.com wrote: > I've just added the first half of this feature (splitting), and it > occurs to me that it might be more natural to simply make return do this > (instead of command-return). > > (1) If you were editing plain text and hit return in the middle of a > line, it'd split the rest of the line onto a new line - this is what > people generally expect to happen with the return key. (2) Microsoft > Word outlines work this way. (3) We already have command-return used to > insert a newline in the current item. > > Is anyone attached to the current behavior of return -- simply adding a > new item despite where your selection is? Anyone have any arguments > against a change? Return would still start a new, empty item if the cursor were at the end of the line, right? On that assumption, I like your proposal. And hitting the Delete key right after hitting the Return key should undo the split -- i.e., rejoin the items if the cursor is at the beginning of the new item (as it would be if you just hit Return and split the item), or delete the new, empty item if the Return has been hit at the end of the line -- so that an erroneous Return could always be undone on the fly with a single keystroke using the same finger. Good for fast typists. Your proposal makes the use of Return and Delete seamless and consistent. > On another note, what would you expect to happen if you did a > command-delete to concatenate when you were working with a document with > multiple columns? My first impulse is to concatenate the contents of the > column that you are in with the same column in the previous row, but > only delete the row if all other columns are empty, if not leaving the > rest of the row as is. I don't understand this proposal. In the Finder, Command-delete moves selected items to the trash. I wouldn't think of Command-delete in OmniOutliner as concatenating anything, unless you developed a consistent and comprehensive metaphor for the Delete key that I could incorporate into my mindset and use without thinking -- like the split/join system, above. What do various Delete and modifier-Delete combinations do now? -- Bill Cheeseman - wjcheeseman@earthlink.net Quechee Software, Quechee, Vermont, USA http://www.quecheesoftware.com The AppleScript Sourcebook - http://www.AppleScriptSourcebook.com Vermont Recipes - http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/VermontRecipes Croquet Club of Vermont - http://members.valley.net/croquetvermont From jaharmi at mac.com Fri Jan 4 03:40:59 2002 From: jaharmi at mac.com (Jeremy Reichman) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Feature request In-Reply-To: <87F7B218-009E-11D6-A447-003065B22C50@omnigroup.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure if the changed Return behavior would affect how text is pasted into Outliner, but that may be a consideration. One thing I have found quirky (and I've seen at least one other person on this list mention it) is the way text is pasted in. Currently, if paragraph-formatted text is pasted within an Outliner line, it is inserted only in the text area of that line. More commonly, I'm trying to paste such text in to fill out an outline, and to do that, I have to select an entire line. The way the selections appear on screen is almost indistinguishable at quick glance -- the selected line is fully highlighted, but the when the text area only is selected, there is a small unhighlighted area to its left (yet otherwise, it still looks line the line itself is highlighted). Anyway, I'm in favor of the split and concatenate. However, I will have to think about what keyboards would make the most sense for me in Outliner. (Coming from Aportis' BrainForest Pro, I find Outliner's keyboard commands and operation different enough to confuse my fingers.) -- Jeremy Reichman From jan at storms.org Fri Jan 4 04:34:00 2002 From: jan at storms.org (Jan M.J. Storms) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: OPML Message-ID: <20020104123322.28177@smtp.xs4all.nl> Any plans for OPML support? Sincerely, Jan M.J. Storms, M.A. >---------------------------------------------------------------------< STORMS W A T P scientific advice, training & process coaching Kempstraat 22rd, 2023 ES Haarlem, the Netherlands tel. +31 (23) 529 91 61 Web: - ePost >---------------------------------------------------------------------< From jan at storms.org Fri Jan 4 04:35:01 2002 From: jan at storms.org (Jan M.J. Storms) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Re(2): Feature request Message-ID: <20020104123420.28121@smtp.xs4all.nl> >I've just added the first half of this feature (splitting), and it >occurs to me that it might be more natural to simply make return do this >(instead of command-return). Return now makes a new header, regardless of the position of the cursor, which seems fine, and is the same as in More. > >(1) If you were editing plain text and hit return in the middle of a >line, it'd split the rest of the line onto a new line - this is what >people generally expect to happen with the return key. (2) Microsoft >Word outlines work this way. (3) We already have command-return used to >insert a newline in the current item. ad 3: I use option-return for that. It isn't necessary to have two keycombinations for the same result. > >Is anyone attached to the current behavior of return -- simply adding a >new item despite where your selection is? Anyone have any arguments >against a change? > >On another note, what would you expect to happen if you did a >command-delete to concatenate when you were working with a document with >multiple columns? My first impulse is to concatenate the contents of the >column that you are in with the same column in the previous row, but >only delete the row if all other columns are empty, if not leaving the >rest of the row as is. I.e.: > >* xyz 1 >* abc 2 > >turns into: > >* xyzabc 1 >* 2 > >Instead of eliminating the second bullet point. Any thoughts? Command-backspace could yield: * xyzabc 1 * 2 Command-option-backspace could yield: * xyzabc 12 It might be handy when you want to consolidate table rows that have been imported from a text file that wraps rows per line with hard returns. I want to vote for following closely the shortcuts and keys as used in MORE. MORE flows very well (I never liked the outliner in MS Word). I guess many users of OmniOutliner are MORE-veterans. Sincerely, Jan M.J. Storms, M.A. >---------------------------------------------------------------------< STORMS W A T P scientific advice, training & process coaching Kempstraat 22rd, 2023 ES Haarlem, the Netherlands tel. +31 (23) 529 91 61 Web: - ePost >---------------------------------------------------------------------< From wjcheeseman at earthlink.net Fri Jan 4 05:35:59 2002 From: wjcheeseman at earthlink.net (Bill Cheeseman) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: OPML In-Reply-To: <20020104123322.28177@smtp.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: on 02-01-04 7:33 AM, Jan M.J. Storms at jan@storms.org wrote: > Any plans for OPML support? > > I second the motion. Dave Winer has developed a habit of creating standards that have some staying power, and he indicated a couple of days ago on DaveNet that he plans to push OPML hard this year. It seems like it would be a useful thing to have in OmniOutliner -- complete with AppleScript support, of course. -- Bill Cheeseman - wjcheeseman@earthlink.net Quechee Software, Quechee, Vermont, USA http://www.quecheesoftware.com The AppleScript Sourcebook - http://www.AppleScriptSourcebook.com Vermont Recipes - http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/VermontRecipes Croquet Club of Vermont - http://members.valley.net/croquetvermont From phyax at mac.com Fri Jan 4 06:07:00 2002 From: phyax at mac.com (Nathan Kelley) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: More ideas (was: Re: Feature request) In-Reply-To: <87F7B218-009E-11D6-A447-003065B22C50@omnigroup.com> Message-ID: <38EDB558-011C-11D6-992B-00039309293E@mac.com> To OmniOutliner Users , >> From: Tim Hurson , > From: Greg Titus >> One of the things I really loved about MORE was the ability to split a >> bullet into two with command return, and ocversely to concatenate two >> bullets with command delete. Any chance OmniOutliner will be adding >> those functions soon? > > I've just added the first half of this feature (splitting), and it > occurs to me that it might be more natural to simply make return do > this (instead of command-return). > > (1) If you were editing plain text and hit return in the middle of a > line, it'd split the rest of the line onto a new line - this is what > people generally expect to happen with the return key. (2) Microsoft > Word outlines work this way. (3) We already have command-return used to > insert a newline in the current item. > > Is anyone attached to the current behavior of return -- simply adding a > new item despite where your selection is? Anyone have any arguments > against a change? > > On another note, what would you expect to happen if you did a > command-delete to concatenate when you were working with a document > with multiple columns? My first impulse is to concatenate the contents > of the column that you are in with the same column in the previous row, > but only delete the row if all other columns are empty, if not leaving > the rest of the row as is. I.e.: > > * xyz 1 > * abc 2 > > turns into: > > * xyzabc 1 > * 2 > > Instead of eliminating the second bullet point. Any thoughts? IMHO it's all good, although I'd like to expand on this a little: You could also map the [Enter] key to insert a new item without splitting, even if editing text at the time. AFAIK all MacOS-X-capable Macintoshes should have a keyboard that has both a [Return] and an [Enter]. I would like the option to switch these under the Keyboard pane in preferences, as I would prefer to use [Return] to insert new items and [Enter] to split, but the above behaviour as you suggested would be the default. Additional ideas to allow for powerful concatenation (these are NOT feature requests, just ideas posted for discussion that might be worth implementing): - [Shift]+[Delete] key (backwards delete) to concatenate all text after the cursor of the field being currently edited into the same field in the previous item. If used on an item when not being edited, concatenates text of all fields to equivalent fields in the previous item. - [Shift]+[Del>] key (forwards delete) to concatenate all text before the cursor of the field being currently edited into the same field in the previous item. If used on an item when not being edited, concatenates text of all fields to equivalent fields in the previous item. - Use of [Option] as part of the above combinations allows for concatenation into the next item, rather than previous. - If multiple items are selected, concatenation would occur to the first or the last item, depending what option used. If "first" or "last" were defined based on selection order, that would allow for customised concatenations. [Command]+[Return] could keep its' current function, and [Command]+[Delete] could remove the current item (currently just beeps). Note that, at least on the iBook, [Shift]+[Del>] is generated by [Fn]+[Delete]. BTW, kudos to the OmniOutliner team for excellent work on the 1.2 release! The decision to purchase a license for it was too easy :-) Cheers, Nathan. ________________________________________________ Nathan "Phyax" Kelley email | phyax@runbox.com, phyax@mac.com icq | 4618849 yahoo | phyax ________________________________________________ From kent at pondview.mv.com Fri Jan 4 09:57:00 2002 From: kent at pondview.mv.com (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Feature requests from an Acta user Message-ID: My previous outliner is Acta. (Incidentally, it is still available from http://www.a-sharp.com/acta/ and runs fine in Classic.) I miss two command keys: - Cmd-D (daughter) makes a new item indented under the current item, same as Return + tab in OO - Cmd-A (aunt) makes a new item out one level from the current item, same as Return + shift-tab in OO It's very nice to have these as single keystrokes. Another handy Acta feature is, if you have a multi-line item, you can hide all but the first line by option-clicking on the triangle. Finally, is there any chance of supporting direct import of Acta files? (without having to export as text from Acta?) The file format is supposed to be documented at http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.04/04.01/FormatDriver/index.html though that link is not working right now. Kent P.S. I am used to Acta behavior of Return, it makes a new empty item without splitting the current item. Shift-Return puts a line break in the current item while option-return splits the item at the insertion point. From kent at pondview.mv.com Fri Jan 4 10:05:04 2002 From: kent at pondview.mv.com (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Usage questions Message-ID: What is the difference between move left and outdent? Between move right and indent? What are group and ungroup for? Thanks, Kent From steve at redmonk.net Fri Jan 4 10:45:01 2002 From: steve at redmonk.net (Steve Ivy) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Help - AppleScript, walking an outline Message-ID: <144FDEF4-0143-11D6-B02C-00039358129E@redmonk.net> Firstly, I really appreciate the level of support for AppleScript already in OO. However (unless this changed immediately prior to the final release of 1.2) there is no way to get the children of an outline heading. I need to be able to walk the hierarchy, and get the children of a particular node. I'm not explaining this well, maybe some pseudo-code would help... tell app OO set outText for cNode in the children of the root of document 1 (*top level elements*) set outText to outText & "
    " & (the title of cNode) for ccNode in the children of cNode set outText to outText & "
  • " & (the title of ccNode) end end end tell This is a silly example, I know... but I have not been able to make something like this work. The thing seems to be that "the children of the root of document 1" returns a list of "application 'OmniOutliner'" items. Now, I'm no expert in AppleScript, but I'm confused (as is probably obvious by now.) If anyone can decipher what I'm trying to say here, and has a clue as to what I can do to solve this, I would be grateful. --Steve Ivy, outline lover From larry at pdxlaw.com Fri Jan 4 15:24:00 2002 From: larry at pdxlaw.com (Lawrence Matasar) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: numbering; and return key Message-ID: <1DFC73E5-016A-11D6-A9DB-00306571CDEE@pdxlaw.com> I'm a longtime MORE user (also PCOutline and ThinkTank), that has just discovered this list. So pardon me if I'm going over old ground, but the main thing that I miss between MORE and OmniOutliner is MORE's ability to add numbers to the outlines, especially the "Harvard" numbering system: I A 1. a. etc. Such numbering is practically essential when navigating through big outlines, especially if they've been printed out. It would be a great addition to OmniOutliner. Also, as far as the recent discussion over the return key, I may be in the minority, but I greatly prefer the MORE approach in which hitting return adds a new item wherever the cursor is. In fact, on the rare occasions when I've tried "outliners," in word processors, such as the one in Word, this is the missing MORE feature that I first noticed. Command-return or option-return seems like a better approach for splitting the entry at the cursor. From greg at omnigroup.com Fri Jan 4 15:42:00 2002 From: greg at omnigroup.com (Greg Titus) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: numbering; and return key In-Reply-To: <1DFC73E5-016A-11D6-A9DB-00306571CDEE@pdxlaw.com> Message-ID: <880BCEA4-016C-11D6-A447-003065B22C50@omnigroup.com> On Friday, January 4, 2002, at 03:23 PM, Lawrence Matasar wrote: > I'm a longtime MORE user (also PCOutline and ThinkTank), that has > just discovered this list. So pardon me if I'm going over old ground, > but the main thing that I miss between MORE and OmniOutliner is MORE's > ability to add numbers to the outlines, especially the "Harvard" > numbering system: > I > A > 1. > a. > > etc. > > Such numbering is practically essential when navigating through > big outlines, especially if they've been printed out. It would be a > great addition to OmniOutliner. Hi Lawrence, The UI for setting the numbering isn't there in the currently released version, but this stuff has been implemented and you'll see it in the next release. The options are legal (1, 1.1, 1.1.2), letters (a, b, c), numeric (1, 2, 3), and roman (I, II, III), in upper or lowercase and with your choice of prefix and postfix (i.e. following "."s or parenthesis or whatever). At the moment we haven't implemented automatic combinations of styles so you'd have to set those four levels individually for Harvard style, but that is certainly planned. > Also, as far as the recent discussion over the return key, I may > be in the minority, but I greatly prefer the MORE approach in which > hitting return adds a new item wherever the cursor is. In fact, on the > rare occasions when I've tried "outliners," in word processors, such > as the one in Word, this is the missing MORE feature that I first > noticed. Command-return or option-return seems like a better approach > for splitting the entry at the cursor. Thanks for the feedback. I guess we might end up needing a preference for this... --Greg From jan at storms.org Sat Jan 5 00:14:00 2002 From: jan at storms.org (Jan M.J. Storms) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: More from MORE Message-ID: <20020105081304.24960@smtp.xs4all.nl> Some other things we miss from MORE: - comments (not a good name I think; in Frontier outlines it is the refcon?), but it is the text/pictures hidden in a header, and accessed with enter or shift-enter; - pictures mixed in text; - rules. If it would all be in OmniOutliner, we could *work* with those MORE-files in OmniOutliner. I have written books in MORE. The ability to hide and show detail is an enormous asset. Sincerely, Jan M.J. Storms, M.A. >---------------------------------------------------------------------< STORMS W A T P scientific advice, training & process coaching Kempstraat 22rd, 2023 ES Haarlem, the Netherlands tel. +31 (23) 529 91 61 Web: - ePost >---------------------------------------------------------------------< From khr at earthlink.net Sat Jan 5 19:19:01 2002 From: khr at earthlink.net (Robert Westmoreland) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: More ideas (was: Re: Feature request) In-Reply-To: <38EDB558-011C-11D6-992B-00039309293E@mac.com> Message-ID: I'll add a vote for letting [Return] and [Enter] have different functions. I'm rather used to what the [Return] key does now, and was not really in favor of changing it, but did not have a good alternative suggestion. However, the suggestion below looks ideal. -- Robert > From: Nathan Kelley > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 01:06:17 +1100 > To: OmniOutliner Users > Cc: Greg Titus > Subject: More ideas (was: Re: Feature request) > > You could also map the [Enter] key to insert a new item without > splitting, even if editing text at the time. AFAIK all MacOS-X-capable > Macintoshes should have a keyboard that has both a [Return] and an > [Enter]. I would like the option to switch these under the Keyboard pane > in preferences, as I would prefer to use [Return] to insert new items > and [Enter] to split, but the above behaviour as you suggested would be > the default. From jsp at designframe.com Sun Jan 6 10:25:02 2002 From: jsp at designframe.com (James Spahr) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Help - AppleScript, walking an outline In-Reply-To: <144FDEF4-0143-11D6-B02C-00039358129E@redmonk.net> Message-ID: > Firstly, I really appreciate the level of support for AppleScript > already in OO. However (unless this changed immediately prior to the > final release of 1.2) there is no way to get the children of an outline > heading. I need to be able to walk the hierarchy, and get the children > of a particular node. Steve I've just noticed a AS behavior change in OO 1.2 The item ID numbers in an outline are now sequential, so you can step through an outline one item at a time and the order will be correct. Previously the item number of a line would live with the line object (so when lines were rearranged, this method would not work) HTH James. From jsp at designframe.com Sun Jan 6 11:20:59 2002 From: jsp at designframe.com (James Spahr) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: AppleScript, walking an outline In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The item ID numbers in an outline are now sequential, so you can step > through an outline one item at a time and the order will be correct Example: Here's a script that will take an OO outline and re-create it in Brain Forest (so you can carry your outlines on your Palm :) ) on procOutline(docNum) -- docNum is the OO document number tell application "OmniOutliner" -- get the item count set lineCt to the count of (every item in document docNum) end tell -- Prep Brain Forest tell application "BrainForest Professional" set thebfDoc to make new document set the tree type of thebfDoc to project tell thebfDoc set show due dates to false set show numbering to false set show priorities to false set new items are action to true end tell set theBFObjs to {thebfDoc} set theBFlvl to 1 end tell repeat with i from 1 to lineCt -- walk the outline tell application "OmniOutliner" set txt to every text of item i of document docNum set lvl to level of item i of document docNum set stt to state of item i of document docNum set exp to expanded of item i of document docNum as boolean end tell -- convert the checked state verbage diffs set bfdone to false if stt is "checked" then set bfdone to true end if tell application "BrainForest Professional" -- check to see if we have indented in one level -- we'll keep the skack in a list if lvl > theBFlvl then try set item lvl of theBFObjs to newLeaf on error set theBFObjs to theBFObjs & {newLeaf} end try end if -- set the 2 outlines to be on the some level set theBFlvl to lvl set insertObj to item lvl of theBFObjs -- make a leaf in BF -- Watch the break in this email! tell insertObj to set newLeaf to make new tree item at end with properties {title:txt, action:true, done:bfdone, expanded:exp} --reveal newLeaf end tell end repeat end procOutline procOutline(1) From kent at pondview.mv.com Mon Jan 7 07:59:02 2002 From: kent at pondview.mv.com (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Strange behavior of move left Message-ID: Given the outline - item 1 - item 2 - item 3 if I select item 2 and move left, I get - item 1 - item 2 - item 3 Item 3 is now a sub-item of item 2. I don't think this is right. Move left on item 2 should give - item 1 - item 3 - item 2 so item 2 is a peer of item 1 and item 3 is still a child of item 1. Kent From kent at pondview.mv.com Mon Jan 7 08:04:01 2002 From: kent at pondview.mv.com (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Feature requests from an Acta user Message-ID: >I miss two command keys: >- Cmd-D (daughter) makes a new item indented under the current item, >same as Return + tab in OO Actually you can't always do this with return + tab. If you have - item 1 - item 2 and you select item 1, command-D in Acta will give you - item 1 - new item - item 2 whereas return + tab will give you - item 1 - item 2 - new item OO doesn't seem to have a simple way to do the first... Kent From greg at omnigroup.com Mon Jan 7 12:34:03 2002 From: greg at omnigroup.com (Greg Titus) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Feature requests from an Acta user In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Monday, January 7, 2002, at 08:02 AM, Kent Johnson wrote: >> I miss two command keys: >> - Cmd-D (daughter) makes a new item indented under the current item, >> same as Return + tab in OO > > Actually you can't always do this with return + tab. If you have > > - item 1 > - item 2 > > and you select item 1, command-D in Acta will give you > > - item 1 > - new item > - item 2 > > whereas return + tab will give you > > - item 1 > - item 2 > - new item > > OO doesn't seem to have a simple way to do the first... Yes, right now we don't. About the closest we have at the moment is shift-return to create a new item above the current item. So you'd have to hit down arrow to move down to 'item 2', then shift-return to create 'new item' in the right place. --Greg From twiebe at mac.com Mon Jan 7 12:55:02 2002 From: twiebe at mac.com (Tom Wiebe) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Omni Graffle / Omni Outliner - thoughts and suggestions Message-ID: Hi there, Well, I've almost completed my Omni workflow, having purchased Omni Outliner last week to go with Omnigraffle. I'd love to also purchase Omni Web but, as I'm sure you're aware, the style sheet support in it is severely broken. As soon as this is fixed, I'm so there. Thought I'd pass on some feedback on Omni Outliner and Omni Graffle, they are both EXTREMELY fabulous and have made a big impact on my workflow. Both are set as login items! That being said, they are both 1.x releases so I hope you'll appreciate a bit of constructive criticism. Graffle seems to be the most complete of the two at the moment, so I'll start with that. I've got only 1 thing that bugs me about it and a couple of suggestions for future enhancements. What really bugs me is that the tool palettes don't float and they aren't resizeable. Please add an option to make them float above your document. I'm usually using Graffle full screen, so I'm always going to the menu, toolbar or the keyboard to get my palettes back, this is rather tiresome. It'd be really nice to be able to select the box type when importing an Omni Outliner document. Sometimes, I want items to go into full sized boxes, instead of the little "name tags" that are used now. It'd also be really nice to be able to have items from different levels of an outline import with different shapes and or background colors, for easy selectability. Another thing that would be really cool would be to be able to select items by their text contents. I use Omnigraffle for planning my Lasso Development (I support all but the biggest Seattle area developers!) and use a variety of file suffixes depending on whether a file is an include, process or display file. It'd be really nice to be able to select all the boxes that contain ".lasso" via the find dialog. Omni Outliner is wonderfully infuriating for me at the moment. I've been using Brainforest Professional from www.aportis.com for the last couple of years and, if it were possible to fuse Omni Outliner and Brainforest, I'd be happier than a pig in shit. Some of the things I really like about Brainforest which are missing in Outliner are: 1. Palm integration - OK, so it's unlikely that it would make sense for you to build a palm version of Outliner, but it would be great if I could somehow get Outliner documents into From tim at timhurson.com Mon Jan 7 17:05:03 2002 From: tim at timhurson.com (Tim Hurson) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Small Problem Message-ID: Hi Gregg, I?m having a small problem with OO. When I select an item and want to drag it to a location that doesn?t appear in the current window (in other words, higher or lower than the current selection), when I get to the top (or bottom) frame of the window, I get erratic responses. Sometimes the screen just stalls, sometimes it will scroll a little, then stop. It?s very hard to get a smooth scroll while dragging an item higher up or lower down. Hope this makes sense. Tim Hurson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The first step toward the intellectual mastery of the world is the discovery of general principles and rules which bring order into chaos. By such mental operations we simplify the world of phenomena, but in doing so, we cannot avoid falsifying it, especially when we are dealing with processes of development and change. Sigmund Freud (1856-1939) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /mailman/archive/omnioutliner-users/attachments/20020107/4db03d63/attachment.html From cpac at mac.com Tue Jan 8 16:44:14 2002 From: cpac at mac.com (Ciaran P. A. Connelly) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: 3 feature requests Message-ID: (1) In its current form OO puts in the file path of files dropped into outlines. Hyperlinks would be much more useful. (2) OO could also be very useful if you could put images into individual line items (3) Perhaps for version 2 (& Graffle 2.5 or something) there could be some integration between the two programs? Maybe that would be overkill, but the occasional draw element inside an outline can make things much clearer. (I've said before that between the two programs you've got a hell of a jump on a very good OmniWord) Keep up the good work... From jaharmi at mac.com Fri Jan 11 07:46:19 2002 From: jaharmi at mac.com (Jeremy Reichman) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Outliner 1.2 and copy-paste text export changes Message-ID: <93A7E5B2-06A9-11D6-92F8-0050E485AF48@mac.com> The new Outliner 1.2 changes the way copy and paste is handled with other applications. (I noticed it because it adversely affected a slightly-scripted workflow I'd already built around OO.) I select the entire contents of an outline in OO. The outline has its status checkboxes hideen, and has no extra columns. I paste the text into BBEdit 6.5. It pastes in with each new outline line marked with a dash ("-") instead of the older version's asterisk ("*"). It also hard wraps the text to an abnormally narrow column width, which did not happen in the previous version. I have not changed any settings in BBEdit 6.5 since upgrading to OO 1.2. I also had the default preferences from OO 1.2. If I export text (a much more lengthy process) from OO, I can open it up in BBEdit 6.5 and it will more closely match the output I had before. However, this is only after I change the text export prefs in OO to use an asterisk for all levels of outlines. Also, OO seems to put an extra blank line at the beginning of the text export file. My process depends upon the previous text-pasting behavior of OO, to the extent that I have BBEdit doing some grep searching and replacing on each line. Unless I change the prefs back to match what OO did naturally before, and then to a text export, my AppleScripting needs to be modified. Grepping the text output from OO by default is now more involved, because each outline line can start with a different character. I can't really test this change when pasting to TextEdit, because it appears to paste according to the RTF export preferences (it has triangles and stuff). Pasting into Word v.X also seems to follow the RTF export prefs, but loses the triangles in the process -- instead, I get just a double-quote mark in the AppleGothic font. Anyway, I don't care as much about TextEdit or Word right now, because they aren't in this workflow that I've built. My idea for how to work with this: - make the cut/copy action exactly mimic the output of the current text/RTF export settings, as it seemed to do before in OO 1.1 - allow multiple saved sets of export prefs for text and RTF - include a saved set for text and RTF that does what OO 1.1 did (which was simpler for exports) - include a saved set for text and RTF that does what OO 1.2, because obviously this is desired by some - let the user save sets of export settings, appropriate for different jobs - let the user choose the saved set for text/RTF exports in the export dialog - allow the saved set configuration to be called when AppleScripting a "export as" or cut/copy action, so that AppleScripters can precisely define how they want the data exported - allow on-demand change of the text/RTF settings when doing an AppleScripted "export as" or cut/copy action, so that a saved set does not have to be present (which helps when distributing scripts to others) Thanks! For now, I think I'll be reverting back to OO 1.1 because it was simpler for my work. -- Jeremy Reichman From kent at pondview.mv.com Fri Jan 11 13:12:04 2002 From: kent at pondview.mv.com (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Outliner 1.2 and copy-paste text export changes In-Reply-To: <93A7E5B2-06A9-11D6-92F8-0050E485AF48@mac.com> References: <93A7E5B2-06A9-11D6-92F8-0050E485AF48@mac.com> Message-ID: At 10:40 AM -0500 1/11/02, Jeremy Reichman wrote: >The new Outliner 1.2 changes the way copy and paste is handled with >other applications. (I noticed it because it adversely affected a >slightly-scripted workflow I'd already built around OO.) > >I select the entire contents of an outline in OO. The outline has >its status checkboxes hideen, and has no extra columns. > >I paste the text into BBEdit 6.5. It pastes in with each new outline >line marked with a dash ("-") instead of the older version's >asterisk ("*"). It also hard wraps the text to an abnormally narrow >column width, which did not happen in the previous version. You can make the wrap width wider by setting it in the 'show column info' window. If you make it big enough it will not wrap. I think that outlines without columns shouldn't wrap at all. Kent From jdd at efn.org Fri Jan 11 23:42:00 2002 From: jdd at efn.org (John David Duncan) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: small iDisk bug Message-ID: I have an Outliner file on my iDisk that I access from two different machines. Apparently, if I open the application without the iDisk mounted (i.e. visible on the desktop), this file disappears from the list of recent documents under "Open Recent." Can anything be done to improve that? - JD From bcovey at omnigroup.com Wed Jan 16 14:37:01 2002 From: bcovey at omnigroup.com (Brian Covey) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Casting Call Message-ID: <847A1771-0AD1-11D6-8ED5-00050209C5D2@omnigroup.com> We're looking to bring on another tech support person here fairly quickly, and our mailing lists seem like the best place to start looking, really. Everybody here has more than demonstrated that they're knowledgeable, willing to help others, and above all articulate, which are some very important traits when it comes to doing the support thing, really. =) That said, we want to move really, really quickly on this; we've made a more aggressive commitment to support registered users of our products, and I want to be sure that we can fulfill that commitment. This is what we're looking for: (And this is above and beyond what's covered under the pages at - definitely read those pages before you send us anything) *Near-immediate availability. Ideally, you'd be able to start tomorrow. If you can start in two weeks, that's acceptable. Much beyond that is going to reduce your chances considerably. *The above condition obviously means that we'll mostly be drawing from candidates we get in the Seattle Metro area. We can't offer you relocation assistance, and we aren't hiring people who want to work as independent contractors, or at remote sites. *Experience with Mac OS X and Omni Group products. Anyone on this mailing list should have no trouble with this one. =) * Prior experience in Tech Support is a plus, but not necessarily required, if you can demonstrate that you've got what it takes to explain the unexplainable, decipher the undecipherable, and to soothe the brow of the angriest customer on his worst day. * Willingness to commit to working Tech Support indefinitely. While we would never rule out the possibility of advancement, what we have a need for now are dedicated and hard-working support folk that are in this for the long haul. We don't want to hire someone who really wants to be an engineer and who's going to be unhappy working tech support. So, if you're interested, send your resume along with a cover letter laying out your availability and salary requirements to resumes@omnigroup.com before this Friday. Please don't respond to this address with your submissions. We'll look at the resume mailbox this weekend and start contacting folks very soon. Sincerely, Brian Covey Support Manager Omni Group From khr at earthlink.net Sat Jan 19 14:04:04 2002 From: khr at earthlink.net (Robert Westmoreland) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: open in OmniGraffle Message-ID: You know, and "Open in OmniGraffle" option under the File menu wouldn't be a bad thing. This would be to open the outline you are working on in OmniGraffle in a simple step. -- Robert W From kc at omnigroup.com Mon Jan 21 22:13:52 2002 From: kc at omnigroup.com (Ken Case) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: open in OmniGraffle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8DDE736C-0EF9-11D6-8FE2-0003934BF9C8@omnigroup.com> You can do this quite easily now by dragging the file icon (in the title bar) onto OmniGraffle's app icon. Hope this helps! Ken On Saturday, January 19, 2002, at 02:00 , Robert Westmoreland wrote: > You know, and "Open in OmniGraffle" option under the File menu wouldn't > be a > bad thing. This would be to open the outline you are working on in > OmniGraffle in a simple step. > > -- Robert W > > _______________________________________________ > OmniOutliner-Users mailing list > OmniOutliner-Users@omnigroup.com > http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/omnioutliner-users > From rob at bartel.com Tue Jan 22 13:49:31 2002 From: rob at bartel.com (Rob Bartel) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: New User Questions/Request Message-ID: I've owned and been using Omnioutliner for a few months now, but have been using it hard for the past few days (on a design task in my software engineering profession) and have an observation, a question, and a couple of passionate requests: 0) I LOVE this tool. I've missed MORE dreadfully since it went away, (although it's still available last I checked, for free but the same version as worked in OS 7.5 or thereabouts...) After I moved to OS X I was quite happy to find OmniOutliner and love using (and looking at) it. 1) I sent a (relatively minor) "array out of bounds" bug report to omnioutliner@omnigroup.com. Should I not expect a reply, or is this a black hole? 2) Please, please, can the behavior of "Return" be changed so that it inserts at the next visible line, not the next line at the same level? MORE worked this way, and I'm tearing my hair out everytime I want to add an item at the top of a subtree. If a headline is collapsed, and is the current "insertion point" then it should insert a new headline at the same level. If it is expanded then it should insert a sub-headline as the first sub-headline of the list. Maybe there's a way to do this I've missed, but couldn't find any reference to it. In any event, this seems to me to be the intuitive behavior. I have discovered shift-return to insert a headline above the current headline, but I'd still like this "next visible line" behavior. 3) Are there keyboard shortcuts for moving headlines up or down? If I remember right, MORE had them (because my subconcious keeps trying to do it with shift-uparrow or shift-downarrow) but I haven't discovered them yet for Omnioutliner. I'm not anti-mouse dragging, but this is something I do a lot during the brainstorming phase, and I'd really like to be able to move headlines up and down from the keyboard, analogous to the way I can move them in and out with tab. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1985 bytes Desc: not available Url : /mailman/archive/omnioutliner-users/attachments/20020122/1ce7e48e/attachment.bin From kent at pondview.mv.com Wed Jan 23 07:44:27 2002 From: kent at pondview.mv.com (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: New User Questions/Request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:28 PM -0500 1/22/02, Rob Bartel wrote: >2) Please, please, can the behavior of "Return" be changed so that >it inserts at the next visible line, not the next line at the same >level? Please, please, no! Acta works the same as OO on this one :-) >3) Are there keyboard shortcuts for moving headlines up or down? cmd-U and cmd-D Kent From rob at bartel.com Wed Jan 23 08:03:11 2002 From: rob at bartel.com (Rob Bartel) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: New User Questions/Request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <83C2B635-101A-11D6-B3BD-003065D5A082@bartel.com> On Wednesday, January 23, 2002, at 10:43 AM, Kent Johnson wrote: > At 4:28 PM -0500 1/22/02, Rob Bartel wrote: >> 2) Please, please, can the behavior of "Return" be changed so that it >> inserts at the next visible line, not the next line at the same level? > > Please, please, no! Acta works the same as OO on this one :-) Hmmmpfff. What's an "Acta"? At first I thought it must be some sort of a PC thing with a brain-damaged interface like this :-) But I find it is apparently a Mac program of the same era (and fate) as MORE. If I recall correctly, early versions of MORE worked this way too, but they "fixed" it in version 3. Seriously, this is driving me nuts. I guess I'd modify my request to be a request for a preference. > >> 3) Are there keyboard shortcuts for moving headlines up or down? > > cmd-U and cmd-D Geez, there is is right in the menu. I wonder how I missed it, after trying to find it several times... Thanks, and sorry for the "noise" on the list. > > Kent > _______________________________________________ > OmniOutliner-Users mailing list > OmniOutliner-Users@omnigroup.com > http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/omnioutliner-users > From kent at pondview.mv.com Wed Jan 23 08:25:01 2002 From: kent at pondview.mv.com (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: New User Questions/Request In-Reply-To: <9F434488-101B-11D6-B3BD-003065D5A082@bartel.com> References: <9F434488-101B-11D6-B3BD-003065D5A082@bartel.com> Message-ID: >Hmmm... I seem to be spamming you this morning. Sorry, I don't mean to. No problem at all. > >I wanted to follow up a bit more, if you don't mind, about how you >do insert a subhead at the top of the list of subheads? The >"natural" thing to do, it seems to me, is to click (or move) to the >parent heading and hit return, assuming the subheads are open >already. Do you position to the first subhead and shift-return, or >is there something else I don't know yet that is easier and more >intuitive? Well, there isn't an easy way to do this in OO, and I agree strongly with you that there should be. I have already posted my suggestion to the list - Acta uses cmd-D (daughter) and cmd-A (aunt) as shortcuts to create a new item indented or outdented below the current item. For aunts, it is smart enough to put it below the children of teh current item. In OO, the easiest way to create a new child of the current item is two keystrokes, down-arrow shift-return. > >Perhaps it's just a difference in outlining style, but when do you >*want* it to insert a heading at the same level (again, assuming the >subheads are open). I would normally collapse the subheads and hit >return, or perhaps use the shift-return thing to add it above. That sounds awkward and confusing to me - return sometimes adds a sub-item, sometimes a peer item, depending on what? What if you are in the middle of a list of peers and want to create a sub-item? The Acta behavior is clear and consistent - separate keys for aunt, sibling and daughter, no context dependencies. Just my two cents, Kent From termeer at termeer.de Thu Jan 24 00:22:01 2002 From: termeer at termeer.de (ter Meer) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: OmniOutliner-Users digest, Vol 1 #17 - 4 msgs References: <200201232002.g0NK2VY21190@lists.omnigroup.com> Message-ID: <3C4FC3C2.96FAD93D@termeer.de> Rob, do you know, that More 3.1 runs smoothly under MAC OS 9.2 and the Classic section of OS X? This is why I have not yet changed to OS X and thus am watching this program only from the outside. Is it possible in OmniOutliner to insert chemical formulae, graphics etc. in the comments fields? Nic termeer@termeer.de omnioutliner-users-request@omnigroup.com schrieb: > Send OmniOutliner-Users mailing list submissions to > omnioutliner-users@omnigroup.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/omnioutliner-users > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > omnioutliner-users-request@omnigroup.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > omnioutliner-users-admin@omnigroup.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of OmniOutliner-Users digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. New User Questions/Request (Rob Bartel) > 2. Re: New User Questions/Request (Kent Johnson) > 3. Re: New User Questions/Request (Rob Bartel) > 4. Re: New User Questions/Request (Kent Johnson) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:28:31 -0500 > Subject: New User Questions/Request > From: Rob Bartel > To: omnioutliner-users@omnigroup.com > > --Apple-Mail-3--932026355 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=US-ASCII; > format=flowed > > I've owned and been using Omnioutliner for a few months now, but have > been using it hard for the past few days (on a design task in my > software engineering profession) and have an observation, a question, > and a couple of passionate requests: > > 0) I LOVE this tool. I've missed MORE dreadfully since it went away, > (although it's still available last I checked, for free but the same > version as worked in OS 7.5 or thereabouts...) After I moved to OS X I > was quite happy to find OmniOutliner and love using (and looking at) it. > > 1) I sent a (relatively minor) "array out of bounds" bug report to > omnioutliner@omnigroup.com. Should I not expect a reply, or is this a > black hole? > > 2) Please, please, can the behavior of "Return" be changed so that it > inserts at the next visible line, not the next line at the same level? > MORE worked this way, and I'm tearing my hair out everytime I want to > add an item at the top of a subtree. If a headline is collapsed, and is > the current "insertion point" then it should insert a new headline at > the same level. If it is expanded then it should insert a sub-headline > as the first sub-headline of the list. Maybe there's a way to do this > I've missed, but couldn't find any reference to it. In any event, this > seems to me to be the intuitive behavior. I have discovered shift-return > to insert a headline above the current headline, but I'd still like this > "next visible line" behavior. > > 3) Are there keyboard shortcuts for moving headlines up or down? If I > remember right, MORE had them (because my subconcious keeps trying to do > it with shift-uparrow or shift-downarrow) but I haven't discovered them > yet for Omnioutliner. I'm not anti-mouse dragging, but this is something > I do a lot during the brainstorming phase, and I'd really like to be > able to move headlines up and down from the keyboard, analogous to the > way I can move them in and out with tab. > > --Apple-Mail-3--932026355 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Type: text/enriched; > charset=US-ASCII > > I've owned and been using Omnioutliner for a few months now, but have > been using it hard for the past few days (on a design task in my > software engineering profession) and have an observation, a question, > and a couple of passionate requests: > > 0) I LOVE this tool. I've missed MORE dreadfully since it went away, > (although it's still available last I checked, for free but the same > version as worked in OS 7.5 or thereabouts...) After I moved to OS X I > was quite happy to find OmniOutliner and love using (and looking at) > it. > > 1) I sent a (relatively minor) "array out of bounds" bug report to > Lucida Grandeomnioutliner@omnigroup.com. > Should I not expect a reply, or is this a black hole? > > 2) Please, please, can the behavior of "Return" be changed so that it > inserts at the next visible line, not the next line at the same level? > MORE worked this way, and I'm tearing my hair out everytime I want to > add an item at the top of a subtree. If a headline is collapsed, and > is the current "insertion point" then it should insert a new headline > at the same level. If it is expanded then it should insert a > sub-headline as the first sub-headline of the list. Maybe there's a > way to do this I've missed, but couldn't find any reference to it. In > any event, this seems to me to be the intuitive behavior. I have > discovered shift-return to insert a headline above the current > headline, but I'd still like this "next visible line" behavior. > > 3) Are there keyboard shortcuts for moving headlines up or down? If I > remember right, MORE had them (because my subconcious keeps trying to > do it with shift-uparrow or shift-downarrow) but I haven't discovered > them yet for Omnioutliner. I'm not anti-mouse dragging, but this is > something I do a lot during the brainstorming phase, and I'd really > like to be able to move headlines up and down from the keyboard, > analogous to the way I can move them in and out with tab. > --Apple-Mail-3--932026355-- > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:43:25 -0500 > To: omnioutliner-users@omnigroup.com > From: Kent Johnson > Subject: Re: New User Questions/Request > > At 4:28 PM -0500 1/22/02, Rob Bartel wrote: > >2) Please, please, can the behavior of "Return" be changed so that > >it inserts at the next visible line, not the next line at the same > >level? > > Please, please, no! Acta works the same as OO on this one :-) > > >3) Are there keyboard shortcuts for moving headlines up or down? > > cmd-U and cmd-D > > Kent > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:01:51 -0500 > Subject: Re: New User Questions/Request > Cc: omnioutliner-users@omnigroup.com > To: Kent Johnson > From: Rob Bartel > > On Wednesday, January 23, 2002, at 10:43 AM, Kent Johnson wrote: > > > At 4:28 PM -0500 1/22/02, Rob Bartel wrote: > >> 2) Please, please, can the behavior of "Return" be changed so that it > >> inserts at the next visible line, not the next line at the same level? > > > > Please, please, no! Acta works the same as OO on this one :-) > Hmmmpfff. What's an "Acta"? At first I thought it must be some sort of a > PC thing with a brain-damaged interface like this :-) But I find it is > apparently a Mac program of the same era (and fate) as MORE. If I recall > correctly, early versions of MORE worked this way too, but they "fixed" > it in version 3. > > Seriously, this is driving me nuts. I guess I'd modify my request to be > a request for a preference. > > > > >> 3) Are there keyboard shortcuts for moving headlines up or down? > > > > cmd-U and cmd-D > Geez, there is is right in the menu. I wonder how I missed it, after > trying to find it several times... > > Thanks, and sorry for the "noise" on the list. > > > > Kent > > _______________________________________________ > > OmniOutliner-Users mailing list > > OmniOutliner-Users@omnigroup.com > > http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/omnioutliner-users > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:24:21 -0500 > To: omnioutliner-users@omnigroup.com > From: Kent Johnson > Subject: Re: New User Questions/Request > > >Hmmm... I seem to be spamming you this morning. Sorry, I don't mean to. > > No problem at all. > > > > >I wanted to follow up a bit more, if you don't mind, about how you > >do insert a subhead at the top of the list of subheads? The > >"natural" thing to do, it seems to me, is to click (or move) to the > >parent heading and hit return, assuming the subheads are open > >already. Do you position to the first subhead and shift-return, or > >is there something else I don't know yet that is easier and more > >intuitive? > > Well, there isn't an easy way to do this in OO, and I agree strongly > with you that there should be. > > I have already posted my suggestion to the list - Acta uses cmd-D > (daughter) and cmd-A (aunt) as shortcuts to create a new item > indented or outdented below the current item. For aunts, it is smart > enough to put it below the children of teh current item. > > In OO, the easiest way to create a new child of the current item is > two keystrokes, down-arrow shift-return. > > > > >Perhaps it's just a difference in outlining style, but when do you > >*want* it to insert a heading at the same level (again, assuming the > >subheads are open). I would normally collapse the subheads and hit > >return, or perhaps use the shift-return thing to add it above. > > That sounds awkward and confusing to me - return sometimes adds a > sub-item, sometimes a peer item, depending on what? What if you are > in the middle of a list of peers and want to create a sub-item? > > The Acta behavior is clear and consistent - separate keys for aunt, > sibling and daughter, no context dependencies. > > Just my two cents, > Kent > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > OmniOutliner-Users mailing list > OmniOutliner-Users@omnigroup.com > http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/omnioutliner-users > > End of OmniOutliner-Users Digest -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: termeer.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 284 bytes Desc: Visitenkarte fŸr ter Meer Url : /mailman/archive/omnioutliner-users/attachments/20020124/8a87a457/termeer.vcf From rob at bartel.com Thu Jan 24 11:12:12 2002 From: rob at bartel.com (Rob Bartel) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Another keyboard navigation question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0E149057-10FE-11D6-B3BD-003065D5A082@bartel.com> Well, after my last gaffe of missing the clover-U and clover-D shortcuts for moving up and down the outline I looked harder for this one - but still couldn't find, or missed it. Is there a way to collapse the parent headline of the headline that has the insertion point without navigating to that parent? Alternatively, is there a way to move to the parent from the keyboard? From danb at 5280.com Fri Jan 25 00:22:19 2002 From: danb at 5280.com (Daniel Brogan) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Getting started with scripting In-Reply-To: <200201242002.g0OK2NY14698@lists.omnigroup.com> Message-ID: It's been a while since I've done any AppleScripting. Can anyone tell me if the following is possible, and, if possible, help me get started? I'd like to write a script that will select all of the checked items in my to do list, gather them under a headline with the current date, and then move them to a separate completed items outline. The resulting outline will give me a diary of what got done when. Thanks. -Dan From greg at omnigroup.com Fri Jan 25 01:25:59 2002 From: greg at omnigroup.com (Greg Titus) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Getting started with scripting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <745DA92E-1175-11D6-A9BF-003065B22C50@omnigroup.com> On Thursday, January 24, 2002, at 09:57 PM, Daniel Brogan wrote: > It's been a while since I've done any AppleScripting. Can anyone tell > me if > the following is possible, and, if possible, help me get started? > > I'd like to write a script that will select all of the checked items in > my > to do list, gather them under a headline with the current date, and then > move them to a separate completed items outline. The resulting outline > will > give me a diary of what got done when. > Hi Dan, The following will do pretty much what you are asking for. I'm revisiting the AppleScript support for the eventual OmniOutliner 2.0 right now, so if you (or anyone else) has any suggestions for terminology, or things you'd like to be able to do with Outliner and AppleScript, or even ideas for scripts that you'd like to be included as examples (like this one - this is a great idea!), I'd love to hear about them. tell application "OmniOutliner" -- set up some variables set original to front document set diary to document named "Diary.ooutline" set today to current date -- format today's date in an appropriate way set dateString to month of today & " " & day of today & ", " & year of today as string -- create the entry in the diary make new item at end of items of diary with properties {text:dateString} -- move the checked items move (every item of original whose state is "checked") to end of children of last item of diary end tell This could be fleshed out quite a bit more (for example, if your diary isn't already open, finding it and opening the document for you), but it's a good minimal script to do what you need. Hope this helps, --Greg From twiebe at mac.com Fri Jan 25 03:37:00 2002 From: twiebe at mac.com (Tom Wiebe) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Getting started with scripting In-Reply-To: <745DA92E-1175-11D6-A9BF-003065B22C50@omnigroup.com> Message-ID: On Friday, January 25, 2002, at 01:25 AM, Greg Titus wrote: > Hi Dan, > > The following will do pretty much what you are asking for. I'm revisiting > the AppleScript support for the eventual OmniOutliner 2.0 right now, so > if you (or anyone else) has any suggestions for terminology, or things > you'd like to be able to do with Outliner and AppleScript, or even ideas > for scripts that you'd like to be included as examples (like this one - > this is a great idea!), I'd love to hear about them. > Greg, If there isn't native support planned for it yet, it'd be nice to see some applescripts that allow you to import and export in OPML format, so I can use omnioutliner with my 3rd favorite OS X app, Radio. Radio is a desktop weblog builder and news aggregator but, most interestingly, seems to be a nearly complete version of the venerable Frontier scripting environment from days of yore. OPML is an open format for storing outlines in XML, more info is at http://www.opml.org/spec. More info on Radio is at http://radio.userland.com/ It would seem that OmniOutliner already has some XML support built in, as it has automagically become the application that opens my OS X prefs files, so I'm guessing that native support for OPML might not be so hard to add. BTW. I'm not quite sure why Outliner took over for opening prefs files, but I'm really glad it does! Tom Wiebe The Image Foundation http://www.imagefoundation.com/ (604) 688-3124 From rrockef1 at maine.rr.com Fri Jan 25 18:13:02 2002 From: rrockef1 at maine.rr.com (Richard R) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: More commands Message-ID: I'm new to this list and at a disadvantage because I haven't got OS X and so can't closely examine current functionality of OmniOutliner. So apologies if my questions aren't right on the mark, have been addressed previously or whatever. Being a More addict for years (I have over 10,000 files in More!), I'm completely habituated to the More way of doing things, including, most especially, the keyboard commands. I gather from a couple of prior posts that Omni commands are somewhat different from More, and there's interest in making them more alike. Alternatively, would it be possible to include a settings option whereby More commands are duplicated exactly? Or could Omni allow users to set their own keyboard commands so as to replicate More commands to whatever degree we please? Thanks, Richard R From danb at 5280.com Tue Jan 29 16:39:02 2002 From: danb at 5280.com (Daniel Brogan) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Getting started with scripting In-Reply-To: <745DA92E-1175-11D6-A9BF-003065B22C50@omnigroup.com> Message-ID: Greg, Sorry for the delay in responding. Deadlines intervened. I tried your script but ran into a couple of problems. As is, it complained the "the variable diary is not defined" (even though it was declared earlier in the script. I tried changed the variable to an absolute reference: make new item at end of items of document named "Completed Tasks" with properties {text:dateString} And I get the error: --> OmniOutliner got an error: NSInternalScriptError Any thoughts? -Dan On 1/25/02 2:25 AM, "Greg Titus" wrote: > > On Thursday, January 24, 2002, at 09:57 PM, Daniel Brogan wrote: > >> It's been a while since I've done any AppleScripting. Can anyone tell >> me if >> the following is possible, and, if possible, help me get started? >> >> I'd like to write a script that will select all of the checked items in >> my >> to do list, gather them under a headline with the current date, and then >> move them to a separate completed items outline. The resulting outline >> will >> give me a diary of what got done when. >> > > Hi Dan, > > The following will do pretty much what you are asking for. I'm > revisiting the AppleScript support for the eventual OmniOutliner 2.0 > right now, so if you (or anyone else) has any suggestions for > terminology, or things you'd like to be able to do with Outliner and > AppleScript, or even ideas for scripts that you'd like to be included as > examples (like this one - this is a great idea!), I'd love to hear about > them. > > tell application "OmniOutliner" > -- set up some variables > set original to front document > set diary to document named "Diary.ooutline" > set today to current date > > -- format today's date in an appropriate way > set dateString to month of today & " " & day of today & ", " & year > of today as string > > -- create the entry in the diary > make new item at end of items of diary with properties > {text:dateString} > > -- move the checked items > move (every item of original whose state is "checked") to end of > children of last item of diary > end tell > > This could be fleshed out quite a bit more (for example, if your diary > isn't already open, finding it and opening the document for you), but > it's a good minimal script to do what you need. > > Hope this helps, > --Greg > From danb at 5280.com Tue Jan 29 17:03:03 2002 From: danb at 5280.com (Daniel Brogan) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Getting started with scripting In-Reply-To: <745DA92E-1175-11D6-A9BF-003065B22C50@omnigroup.com> Message-ID: Not so fast! Figured out one of my problems. The document I thought was called "Completed Tasks" is actually known to OmniOutliner and OS X as "Completed Tasks.ooutline". Live and learn. Two more scripting-related questions: 1) Your script puts the new info at the end of the diary outline. What if I want it at the top? (I tried the obvious syntax.) 2) The headline it creates in the diary outline is set in Helvetica rather than the default font for the document. Is that something I can control? Thanks again! -Dan From cpac at mac.com Tue Jan 29 17:13:02 2002 From: cpac at mac.com (Ciaran P. A. Connelly) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: editing/saving plists In-Reply-To: <200201272301.g0RN1wW06608@lists.omnigroup.com> Message-ID: <711C8C66-151E-11D6-818D-00039315F98C@mac.com> I love the fact that I can open plist documents in outliner (was going to use this to get rid of IE and replace it with OW, but ended up using the Plisteditor app that comes with developer tools), but as far as I can tell, there's no way to save any changes you make: Saving results in an .ooutline file Export gives several options, including three for plain text, but I'm not at all sure which to use to preserve the proper plist format. Perhaps "export as plist" could be added as an option?? From jsp at designframe.com Wed Jan 30 23:44:11 2002 From: jsp at designframe.com (James Spahr) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: readability Message-ID: I'm noticing that when using outlines with multiple columns it gets quite difficult to read across the columns once you get past 3 columns. Can we get a pref that would increase readability? cell lines would be okay, but I would prefer the ability to spec a background color for odd lines (or maybe 3 lines color A, 3 lines color B, 3 lines color A ... etc) -- All out feature creep would be the ability to spec 2(+ ?)* colors, and spec the frequency in which they alternate. James. *of course *I*, being a designer, would never use more than 2 colors ... From rickdees at mac.com Thu Jan 31 00:53:08 2002 From: rickdees at mac.com (Richard Darenberg) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Outliner 1.2 suggestions Message-ID: Greg, Just read many of the archived threads - reminds me of the comedy "I love you, you're perfect, now change". In that vein, I have a few suggestions as well. **command-left/right arrow - this should take you to the beginning or end a line. **command-shift - left/right arrow - this should highlight from the cursor to the beginning or end of a line **return key - I like the current function of the return key - new line. My only suggestion is I would like the option (through preferences) to be use the same text style (font/bold/italic etc) on the new line as the line you started from. eg. If I click on a line that uses Georgia bold text and hit return, the new line will also be of type Georgia bold. This suggestion would probably only work if the command-a command-d suggestions are also implemented. **I'd also like to see a free text type option that MS Word's outliner has. For some reason I do like that feature. Thanks for the great work on outliner. Rick Darenberg -------------------------------------------------- The most insightful thing done to the Windows 9X "Start" menu was to make "Shut down" the first option. From greg at omnigroup.com Thu Jan 31 12:55:03 2002 From: greg at omnigroup.com (Greg Titus) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: readability In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi James, We've implemented alternating row colors for the next release. You'll be able to set both the background color (which you can do now, of course) and the alternate row color. (I.e. iTunes-style, but configurable.) Thanks for the suggestion! --Greg On Wednesday, January 30, 2002, at 09:48 AM, James Spahr wrote: > > I'm noticing that when using outlines with multiple columns it gets > quite > difficult to read across the columns once you get past 3 columns. > > Can we get a pref that would increase readability? cell lines would be > okay, > but I would prefer the ability to spec a background color for odd lines > (or > maybe 3 lines color A, 3 lines color B, 3 lines color A ... etc) -- > > All out feature creep would be the ability to spec 2(+ ?)* colors, and > spec > the frequency in which they alternate. > > James. > > *of course *I*, being a designer, would never use more than 2 colors ... > > _______________________________________________ > OmniOutliner-Users mailing list > OmniOutliner-Users@omnigroup.com > http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/omnioutliner-users > From other at plumcreekmedia.com Thu Jan 31 13:03:01 2002 From: other at plumcreekmedia.com (Daniel Bartholomew) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: readability In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thursday, January 31, 2002, at 02:54 PM, Greg Titus wrote: > We've implemented alternating row colors for the next release. You'll > be able to set both the background color (which you can do now, of > course) and the alternate row color. (I.e. iTunes-style, but > configurable.) Cool! I could use this. Thanks! -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><> Daniel Bartholomew daniel@plumcreekmedia.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 518 bytes Desc: not available Url : /mailman/archive/omnioutliner-users/attachments/20020131/20eb975d/attachment.bin From brent at baton.phys.lsu.edu Mon Feb 4 13:35:59 2002 From: brent at baton.phys.lsu.edu (Brent Neal) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: BG/gutter colors and styles. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: First off, a typo report: The Info inspector's title bar reads 'nfo' in build 1.2 (v10) Now, the meat of the matter. Changing the gutter color to solid black obscures the disclosure triangles. Curiously, the bullet points remain. The real issue is that while I can change the style so that each level in the outline has white text if I set the background to black, I can't do the same thing for the disclosure triangles and bullet points. This is, admittedly, a pretty minor issue but if you're going to implement what is essentially stylesheet-type control over the outline, you might as well go all the way with it. I'd love to see a "library" of different styles that could be applied globally to an outline. Styles could be saved in an subfolder of App. Support, and would appear in a drop down menu under the Info inspector. Brent -- Brent Neal Concurrent Computing Laboratory for Materials Simulations Dept. of Physics - Dept. of Computer Science Louisiana State University From speirsfr at dcs.gla.ac.uk Tue Feb 5 05:34:00 2002 From: speirsfr at dcs.gla.ac.uk (Fraser Speirs) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Shift-up/down Message-ID: Hi all, In Outliner, when you've got a row selected (but not editing), shouldn't shift-up-arrow (and down) add to the selection in the appropriate direction? Is there something I'm missing? I just recently had my outline epiphany - bought my license today, in fact - so I'm still a bit of a beginner with Outliner. Thanks, Fraser -- Fraser Speirs Department of Computing Science - University of Glasgow Room G161, 17 Lillybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8QQ t: 0141 339 8855 ext.0917 e: speirsfr@dcs.gla.ac.uk w: www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~speirsfr From Maxwell.Thibodeaux at usma.edu Tue Feb 5 12:52:04 2002 From: Maxwell.Thibodeaux at usma.edu (Thibodeaux, M. MAJ ENG) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: What's the Roadmap to New Features Look like? Message-ID: <21C10221747AD3118E9D00E0293851AA069DF70D@exmail20.usma.army.mil> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2950 bytes Desc: not available Url : /mailman/archive/omnioutliner-users/attachments/20020205/66507eea/image001.jpg From optionsms at earthlink.net Tue Feb 5 22:09:00 2002 From: optionsms at earthlink.net (Greg Cramer) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: What's the Roadmap to New Features Look like? Message-ID: <7D226.082A.A6905A.Nisus.ID@earthlink.net> I, too, am a new user -- recently (mid-December) upgrading an old PowerBook to a TiBook and purchasing both Outliner and Graffle before learning of their apparent inclusion with new Mac purchases -- and new to this list. Some feature requests which I hope are not too redundant. ;-) Whenever a column has been added to an outline, allow selecting either a column or row and then choosing align (left/center/right) to be applied to the whole selection. Allow date and/or time stamps (these are part of MORE so I suspect these are already requested/anticipated). Greg Cramer mailto:optionsms@earthlink.net *-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-* "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us." -- "Calvin and Hobbes" (Bill Watterson) *-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-* On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:51:09 -0500 "Thibodeaux, M. MAJ ENG" wrote to omnioutliner-users@omnigroup.com and attached the file "image001.jpg" > >I was wondering whether there is a prioritized list of commitments that OO would pursue in its goal to be the More for OSX. Cloning first-this would give OO a lot of clout in the outlining business since there aren't any other apps that do this. Find/Mark and Gather? Singularity with the OmniGraph? From simon at haywired.org Wed Feb 6 10:36:01 2002 From: simon at haywired.org (Simon Hay) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: What's the Roadmap to New Features Look like? References: <7D226.082A.A6905A.Nisus.ID@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3C617744.7070601@haywired.org> Greg Cramer wrote: >I, too, am a new user -- recently (mid-December) upgrading an old PowerBook to a TiBook and purchasing both Outliner and Graffle before learning of their apparent inclusion with new Mac purchases -- and new to this list. > Is this only with the new PowerMac G4s, or with all Macs? I'm thinking about getting one of the new iMacs but I can't see any mention of bundling Outliner/Graffle (both of which I'd want to use) with it so presumably Apple consider that's Pro-only software :-) Also, could someone from Omnigroup clarify a couple of points (I know you're lurking here...) I couldn't find any obvious answers on the website and perhaps somebody else would be interested as well... Firstly, it says that to purchase licenses at educational prices 'you must supply your educational instituion and student/faculty ID number'. I'm in the UK - I don't have a 'student/faculty ID number'. Are these prices only available to American students, or do I qualify - and if so, what do I put in that box? Also, what's the policy on upgrades? Do you get lifetime upgrades free? Upgrades to new releases with the same major version number? Nothing at all? Thanks Simon From dwaquilina at mac.com Wed Feb 6 13:32:01 2002 From: dwaquilina at mac.com (David Aquilina) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: What's the Roadmap to New Features Look like? In-Reply-To: <3C617744.7070601@haywired.org> Message-ID: On Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 01:34 PM, Simon Hay wrote: > Is this only with the new PowerMac G4s, or with all Macs? I'm thinking > about getting one of the new iMacs but I can't see any mention of > bundling Outliner/Graffle (both of which I'd want to use) with it so > presumably Apple consider that's Pro-only software :-) Its bundled with PowerMacs and PowerBooks. So it wouldn't come with a new iMac. Which, while my mind is on it, must be giving Omni a nice little chunk of money. -David From dunham at mac.com Wed Feb 6 14:07:28 2002 From: dunham at mac.com (David Dunham) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: What's the Roadmap to New Features Look like? In-Reply-To: <200202062103.g16L30k24955@lists.omnigroup.com> Message-ID: On Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 01:03 , M. Thibodeaux wrote: > Find/Mark and Gather? How is this significantly different from multiple selection? David Dunham A Sharp david@a-sharp.com Voice/Fax: 206 783 7404 http://a-sharp.com Efficiency is intelligent laziness. From ariek at mac.com Thu Feb 7 22:30:01 2002 From: ariek at mac.com (Arie Korporaal) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Outliner feature request and bug In-Reply-To: <200202072107.g17L7ck07965@lists.omnigroup.com> Message-ID: <2F681100-1C5D-11D6-B671-0030654C8FAE@mac.com> Is this the place to request features and report a bug? How about an Insert command such as date? It would be useful to see rulers for page layout. Are style sheets planned for a future version? Bug report (minor but tacky): Help-->Show Keyboard Commands gives a title bar with a spelling error: KeyboardCommands:ooutline (Read Only) From Maxwell.Thibodeaux at usma.edu Fri Feb 8 06:58:01 2002 From: Maxwell.Thibodeaux at usma.edu (Thibodeaux, M. MAJ ENG) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: OmniOutliner-Users digest, Vol 1 #26 - 2 msgs Message-ID: <21C10221747AD3118E9D00E0293851AA06A602BD@exmail20.usma.army.mil> Find/Mark and Gather is light years beyond multiple selections because it's automagic. An example: Suppose you were trying a court case and you made notes in an outline during the testimony. If you wanted to bring up every instance in which a certain name occurred in the testimony you'd simply search, mark and gather into the outline a group of entries that lists that name. You wouldn't do the search manually. You'd simply tell the search what to look for and it would gather a group of entries for you from the outline. Then you can copy or clone that information for use elsewhere in your outline. If you only wanted to mark the information you could leave it in the context of the outline-- sort of like a multiple find where the word is highlighted everywhere in the document. If cloning were a feature, you could make a clone of the information you just gathered in another section of your outline. Call it, "References to Witness A". If you went back and changed any of the cloned entries, then all of the entries would be changed (this does not make your file double in size either). While I'm at it, I might as well mention "fold" which truncates the text in the outline to show only the first line of text. I think this would be an especially helpful feature with the multiple columns feature in OO. It would allow a user to look at more of the outline/chart at the same time because, of course, it's nearly impossible to get the big picture if one of your column entries is many lines long and ruins the spacing for the rest of the outline. MAJ Maxwell S. Thibodeaux United States Military Academy West Point, New York D/English -----Original Message----- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:07:46 -0800 Subject: Re: What's the Roadmap to New Features Look like? From: David Dunham To: omnioutliner-users@omnigroup.com > Find/Mark and Gather? How is this significantly different from multiple selection? David From joel at proofrunner.com Fri Feb 8 14:42:00 2002 From: joel at proofrunner.com (J. Davis) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:54 2005 Subject: Back-to-Basic feature suggestions Message-ID: First of all, I applaud your effort to resurrect what was arguably the best tool for outlining, organizing and writing ever developed. I started out with ThinkTank, used Acta in both the desk accessory and application, and finally MORE. I have used MORE virtually every day since I bought it and thank my lucky stars that it still works under the 'Classic (system9) mode in OSX. Whenever I plan a product, everything-EVERYTHING goes into a MORE outline. In one central repository, I have copies of letters sent and pending, drawings, specs, timetables, etc. MORE's ability to easily and quickly hide, hoist and especially 'fold' text make organization a simple task. Labeling capabilities (especially Harvard) keep everything in order and make it easy to reference sections when discussing the outline with others. Another critical feature are the document windows. Indeed, MORE's feature set parallels how people think and work. With all that being said, and seemingly universal acknowledgement that MORE is THE standard, why waste time soliciting suggestions on features to implement in OmniOutliner? All of the work in specing this product has been done and neatly bound in three documents: The MORE II Reference Manual (406 pages) Learning MORE II tutorial (154 pages) and The laminated MORE II Quick Reference. All three of these documents came with the program. Within these documents MORE's features are exquisitely detailed by both word and illustration. Here's a quick example that speaks to the discussion threads on expected behavior when pressing the return key: Page 153, MORE Reference Manual Adding Headlines When a headline is selected, pressing the return key creates a new headline, and the headline appears below the currently selected headline. However, MORE follows two rules when creating a new headline. 1. If the selected headline has no expanded subheadlines, then MORE creates a new headline at the same level as the selected headline. 2. If the selected headline has expanded subheadlines, or is the Home headline, then MORE creates the new headline indented and below the selected headline. This same type of straightforward explanation exists for such categories such as creating and applying rules (?styles? in contemporary jargon), joining and splitting headlines, displaying structure symbols, creating headers and footers, inserting page breaks, print preview, marking and gathering, cloning, colorizing, expanding/ collapsing/ folding text, notes windows, embedded document windows, etc. And of course, we haven?t even begun to discuss MORE?S presentation capabilities, such as tree charts, bullet charts and slide shows. As far as I see it, there are only four issues to consider regarding further development of OmniOutliner. 1.) Inventory MORE's features 2.) create your own outline interface that mimics MORE's that of MORE, and 3.) do so by liberating yourself from Apple?s Application Kit framework. You simply can't expect to provide MORE?S rich user interface using standard-issue Application Kit interface widgets. As food for thought, I leave you with the System Requirements of MORE II: A Mac Plus, SE or II; 1 MB of RAM; one 800K floppy drive and a hard disk; and System 4.1 or higher...amazing. And FOURTEEN YEARS LATER on my 670MHZ Titanium sporting 1GB of RAM and 40GB hard drive I?m still running MORE in Classic mode. Because nothing comes even close. Why try to get creative on the basics when what already exists works perfectly? Use MORE's excellent, proven interface as a start, THEN look to adding new features such as columns. We don?t need another ?ToDo? app. We don?t need Word?s oblique approach to outlining. WE NEED MORE!!!! I will be very curious to see what other discussion group members think of this approach. Sincerely, J. Davis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /mailman/archive/omnioutliner-users/attachments/20020208/fb0030cf/attachment.html From brent at baton.phys.lsu.edu Fri Feb 8 19:08:00 2002 From: brent at baton.phys.lsu.edu (Brent Neal) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: Back-to-Basic feature suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > >And of course, we haven't even begun to discuss MORE'S presentation >capabilities, such as tree charts, bullet charts and slide shows. You know, I don't really care about presentation capabilities. I want a simple, easy to use outliner. If I wanted a bloated presentation tool, I'd buy PowerPoint. > >As far as I see it, there are only four issues to consider regarding >further development of OmniOutliner. 1.) Inventory MORE's features > 2.) create your own outline interface that mimics MORE's that of >MORE, and 3.) do so by liberating yourself from Apple's Application >Kit framework. You simply can't expect to provide MORE'S rich user >interface using standard-issue Application Kit interface widgets. This is a pretty dumb idea. The clarity and simplicity of Omni's products stems from the use of the AppKit. Further, for them to roll their own interface kit and more importantly, to maintain it, would mean that OO would likely be priced in the $100+ range, not the $20 range. And as I recall, MORE had a bevy of small, flat, b&w buttons that were absolutely unrecognizable unless you spent time with those hefty manuals you waxed rhapsodic about. "Rich user interface?" Feh. >As food for thought, I leave you with the System Requirements of MORE II: >A Mac Plus, SE or II; 1 MB of RAM; one 800K floppy drive and a >hard disk; and System 4.1 or higher...amazing. And FOURTEEN YEARS >LATER on my 670MHZ Titanium sporting 1GB of RAM and 40GB hard drive >I'm still running MORE in Classic mode. Because nothing comes even >close. Good. Keep running it. If you want a native version, pester Symantec to pick it back up. There are those of us who like OO's interface pretty much the way it is, are pretty satisfied with the feature set and look forward to where the Omni guys are going with it. We don't want a MORE clone. > >Why try to get creative on the basics when what already exists works >perfectly? Use MORE's excellent, proven interface as a start, THEN >look to adding new features such as columns. We don't need another >"ToDo" app. We don't need Word's oblique approach to outlining. WE >NEED MORE!!!! > No. We need OmniOutliner. *You* need MORE. So keep using it, and let the Omni people do their own thing. B -- Brent Neal Concurrent Computing Laboratory for Materials Simulations Dept. of Physics - Dept. of Computer Science Louisiana State University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /mailman/archive/omnioutliner-users/attachments/20020208/7bb8daa5/attachment.html From dwaquilina at mac.com Fri Feb 8 19:36:00 2002 From: dwaquilina at mac.com (David Aquilina) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: Back-to-Basic feature suggestions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00DA14FE-1D0E-11D6-874C-003065C6E2E6@mac.com> On Friday, February 8, 2002, at 10:07 PM, Brent Neal wrote: > No.? We need OmniOutliner. *You* need MORE. So keep using it, and let > the Omni people do their own thing. Amen. -David From khr at earthlink.net Fri Feb 8 20:25:01 2002 From: khr at earthlink.net (Robert Westmoreland) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: Back-to-Basic feature suggestions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hear! Hear! :-) -- Robert W > > From: "J. Davis" > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 17:41:34 -0500 > To: > Subject: Back-to-Basic feature suggestions > > With all that being said, and seemingly universal acknowledgement that MORE is > THE standard, why waste time soliciting suggestions on features to implement > in OmniOutliner? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /mailman/archive/omnioutliner-users/attachments/20020208/64dd113a/attachment.html From max30 at bestweb.net Fri Feb 8 20:54:01 2002 From: max30 at bestweb.net (Max) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: More Thread Message-ID: Omni specifically acknowledges: "We are working to make a tool with all the fun of Symantec's much-loved and missed More TM application for Mac OS, but we're going to be adding new features in later versions that no outliner has ever had." I think that those who know outliners acknowledge More as the best of breed and worthy of emulation. I don't know why anyone would take a position against this. The programmers at Omni aren't novices, and aren't constrained by the widget paradigm. Perhaps you could state your reasons a little more clearly for why Omni shouldn't pursue a More-like app-- or a clone plus. It doesn't have to work like More. It just has to have mark and gather, clone, fold etc. More people need more than you might imagine. Max -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /mailman/archive/omnioutliner-users/attachments/20020208/43158391/attachment.html From brent at baton.phys.lsu.edu Fri Feb 8 21:33:01 2002 From: brent at baton.phys.lsu.edu (Brent Neal) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: More Thread In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 0:00 -0500 2/9/02, Max wrote: >Omni specifically acknowledges: > >"We are working to make a tool with all the fun of Symantec's >much-loved and missed More TM application for Mac OS, but we're >going to be adding new features in later versions that no outliner >has ever had." > >I think that those who know outliners acknowledge More as the best >of breed and worthy of emulation. I don't know why anyone would take >a position against this. The programmers at Omni aren't novices, and >aren't constrained by the widget paradigm. Emulation, yes. Slavishly so, I hope not. OO is a good program because it provides most of the features necessary for an outliner app. It is a *great* app because of its simple, easy to understand user interface, and Omni's attention to detail. I have no problem with new features being added to the program to scratch people's particular itches. I *do* however have a problem with someone coming in and basically saying that OO should be a MORE rewrite. We should want better than that, and the guys at Omni are doing a great job giving it to us. In regards to widgets: Not only are the guys at Omni not novices, they are probably some of the best Cocoa programmers extant. Your implication in the last sentence above shows a certain naivety about programming. Just because they *can* do something doesn't mean they *should*. OmniOutliner is by no means their bread and butter. The Omni guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think most of their cash flow comes from porting games and WebObjects consulting. Why on earth would they want to maintain a entire widget set, for a single app that isn't their primary source of income? They already maintain an extremely useful set of widget classes to *extend* AppKit. For what J. Davis suggested,which was throwing out the AppKit entirely, it would require significant man-hours just to keep the interface code in sync with Apple's low-level stuff. Not to mention the time it would take to write it the first time around. And those man-hours would not be fun man-hours. The whole purpose of Cocoa in general and the AppKit specifically is to try to maximise code reuse. This is as close to the Holy Grail of object-oriented programming as it gets ... and someone suggests *throwing it away* because they don't think the system can give a "rich user interface." Oh, please. > >Perhaps you could state your reasons a little more clearly for why >Omni shouldn't pursue a More-like app-- or a clone plus. It doesn't >have to work like More. It just has to have mark and gather, clone, >fold etc. Read my post more carefully. I never said Omni shouldn't pursue a MORE-like app. I said they shouldn't blindly copy MORE. As I said before, I am quite happy with where OO is, and excited about the direction its going. B -- Brent Neal Concurrent Computing Laboratory for Materials Simulations Dept. of Physics - Dept. of Computer Science Louisiana State University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /mailman/archive/omnioutliner-users/attachments/20020208/deac0156/attachment.html From tim at timhurson.com Sat Feb 9 05:13:00 2002 From: tim at timhurson.com (Tim Hurson) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: Back-to-Basic feature suggestions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: J. Davis On 2/8/02 5:41 PM, you wrote: > Why try to get creative on the basics when what already exists works > perfectly? Use MORE's excellent, proven interface as a start, THEN look to > adding new features such as columns. We don?t need another ?ToDo? app. We > don?t need Word?s oblique approach to outlining. WE NEED MORE!!!! I fully agree. In my own love affair with MORE, I?d forgotten about it?s brilliant documentation. Remember the hardback manual! Thanks for your articulate insights. Tim Hurson > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This telephone has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us. Western Union, internal memo (1876) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /mailman/archive/omnioutliner-users/attachments/20020209/333d761a/attachment.html From tomstraus at keymail.com Sat Feb 9 05:38:59 2002 From: tomstraus at keymail.com (Tom Straus) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: OmniOutliner MORE Conversion Message-ID: In the many MORE outlines that I have, I have underlined text within a heading. When I import the outline, instead of showing the underlined text, it just shows the text, starting with a U and ending with a u. Is there a way you can have it import the actual underlining? -- Tom Straus From phyax at mac.com Sat Feb 9 06:37:01 2002 From: phyax at mac.com (Nathan Kelley) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: Back-to-Basic feature suggestions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <518B437A-1D6A-11D6-949B-00039309293E@mac.com> To OmniOutliner Users , I should start by saying that I have never used MORE. However, since at least half the messages on this list in recent times reference it, and most of those references are glowing, I'll assume that it is a great application that has many useful features. > From: "J. Davis" , > With all that being said, and seemingly universal acknowledgement that > MORE is THE standard, why waste time soliciting suggestions on features > to implement in OmniOutliner? One mans' bread-and-butter is another mans' 800KB of free disk space. How can OmniGroup know what to implement if they don't listen to their user base? > As far as I see it, there are only four issues to consider regarding > further development of OmniOutliner. ?1.) Inventory MORE's features > ?2.) create your own outline interface that mimics MORE's that of MORE, > and 3.) do so by liberating yourself from Apple?s Application Kit > framework. You simply can't expect to provide MORE?S rich user > interface using standard-issue Application Kit interface widgets. We would effectively have a MORE clone, and one that didn't conform to Aqua UI Guidelines, at that. Aside from legal issues, what compelling reason would there be to use OmniOutliner, apart from the fact of it being MacOS X native? And what is it about Aqua interface elements that are unsuitable to building a similar interface? > As food for thought, I leave you with the System Requirements of MORE > II: > A Mac Plus, SE or II; ??1 MB of ?RAM; ?one 800K floppy drive and a hard > disk; and System 4.1 or higher...amazing. And FOURTEEN YEARS LATER on > my 670MHZ Titanium sporting 1GB of RAM and 40GB hard drive I?m still > running MORE in Classic mode. Because nothing comes even close. The OmniOutliner 1.2 package is around 2.8MB on disk. It appears to take around 5MB with no outlines loaded - certainly small and efficient by today's standards, given the computers that run MacOS X. Perhaps OmniOutliner will be in use fourteen years from now - it certainly deserves the chance. > Why try to get creative on the basics when what already exists works > perfectly? Use MORE's excellent, proven interface as a start, THEN look > to adding new features such as columns. We don?t need another ?ToDo? > app. We don?t need Word?s oblique approach to outlining. WE NEED > MORE!!!! OmniOutliner is already more advanced that other "to do" applications (such as Simple To Do) and Word's outline view. > I will be very curious to see what other discussion group members think > of this approach. I believe OmniOutliner should evolve along its' own path. It may have started out as "bring MORE to MacOS X", but a number of the suggestions on this list have included requests for features which likely never existed in MORE. I think OmniOutliner will end up as useful, but different. Different is good :-) Cheers, Nathan. ________________________________________________ Nathan "Phyax" Kelley email | phyax@runbox.com, phyax@mac.com icq | 4618849 yahoo | phyax ________________________________________________ From dunham at mac.com Sat Feb 9 16:37:00 2002 From: dunham at mac.com (David Dunham) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: Back-to-Basic feature suggestions In-Reply-To: <200202092102.g19L2jk11977@lists.omnigroup.com> Message-ID: <58266852-1DBE-11D6-8E3B-003065C13422@mac.com> > Here's a quick example that speaks to the discussion threads on expected > behavior when pressing the return key: For what it's worth, I've always considered MORE's behavior with the return key entirely unexpected. Obviously, YMMV. David Dunham A Sharp david@a-sharp.com Voice/Fax: 206 783 7404 http://a-sharp.com Efficiency is intelligent laziness. From rrockef1 at maine.rr.com Sat Feb 9 18:57:01 2002 From: rrockef1 at maine.rr.com (Richard R) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: Back-to-Basic feature suggestions In-Reply-To: <200202092102.g19L2jk11977@lists.omnigroup.com> Message-ID: I'm bemused by this conversation. As I wrote a while back, I've been using More since it morphed over from ThinkTank, and have tens of thousands of files in it. For that reason, and since in my 50's and no longer so quick at learning new tricks as I once was, I'm inclined to side with folks who want OO to emulate More almost completely, commands, buttons and all; I THINK in More, it does nearly everything I want it too (shy of columns which I've wished for for years), and it will be problematic for me to switch over. On the other hand, if the end result is better (I don't have OO yet, because I don't have OSX yet, because I don't want to risk running More under it ? catch 22 ? so I'm not in a position to say whether OO is indeed better...) then I guess it will be worth my while to learn the new way. It does feel like learning a Dvorak keyboard after a lifetime of Qwerty though - you have to slow down a lot for a long time to be able to speed up a little. Richard R > Message: 9 > Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 01:35:52 +1100 > Subject: Re: Back-to-Basic feature suggestions > From: Nathan Kelley > To: OmniOutliner Users > > To OmniOutliner Users , > > I should start by saying that I have never used MORE. However, since at > least half the messages on this list in recent times reference it, and > most of those references are glowing, I'll assume that it is a great > application that has many useful features. > >> From: "J. Davis" , > >> With all that being said, and seemingly universal acknowledgement that >> MORE is THE standard, why waste time soliciting suggestions on features >> to implement in OmniOutliner? > > One mans' bread-and-butter is another mans' 800KB of free disk space. > How can OmniGroup know what to implement if they don't listen to their > user base? > >> As far as I see it, there are only four issues to consider regarding >> further development of OmniOutliner. ?1.) Inventory MORE's features >> ?2.) create your own outline interface that mimics MORE's that of MORE, >> and 3.) do so by liberating yourself from Apple?s Application Kit >> framework. You simply can't expect to provide MORE?S rich user >> interface using standard-issue Application Kit interface widgets. > > We would effectively have a MORE clone, and one that didn't conform to > Aqua UI Guidelines, at that. Aside from legal issues, what compelling > reason would there be to use OmniOutliner, apart from the fact of it > being MacOS X native? And what is it about Aqua interface elements that > are unsuitable to building a similar interface? > >> As food for thought, I leave you with the System Requirements of MORE >> II: >> A Mac Plus, SE or II; ??1 MB of ?RAM; ?one 800K floppy drive and a hard >> disk; and System 4.1 or higher...amazing. And FOURTEEN YEARS LATER on >> my 670MHZ Titanium sporting 1GB of RAM and 40GB hard drive I?m still >> running MORE in Classic mode. Because nothing comes even close. > > The OmniOutliner 1.2 package is around 2.8MB on disk. It appears to take > around 5MB with no outlines loaded - certainly small and efficient by > today's standards, given the computers that run MacOS X. Perhaps > OmniOutliner will be in use fourteen years from now - it certainly > deserves the chance. > >> Why try to get creative on the basics when what already exists works >> perfectly? Use MORE's excellent, proven interface as a start, THEN look >> to adding new features such as columns. We don?t need another ?ToDo? >> app. We don?t need Word?s oblique approach to outlining. WE NEED >> MORE!!!! > > OmniOutliner is already more advanced that other "to do" applications > (such as Simple To Do) and Word's outline view. > >> I will be very curious to see what other discussion group members think >> of this approach. > > I believe OmniOutliner should evolve along its' own path. It may have > started out as "bring MORE to MacOS X", but a number of the suggestions > on this list have included requests for features which likely never > existed in MORE. I think OmniOutliner will end up as useful, but > different. Different is good :-) > > Cheers, Nathan. From jaharmi at mac.com Sat Feb 9 22:40:57 2002 From: jaharmi at mac.com (Jeremy Reichman) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: Back-to-Basic feature suggestions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0695CF2A-1DF1-11D6-A5F6-0050E485AF48@mac.com> I've never been a MORE user, but if anyone would want to try it out (in either classic OS or Classic mode on OS X), it is available for free download. I mention it just for comparison. I tried it out, and did not grok it. Perhaps because the download didn't have the hardbound documentation? ;) I think I also had stability problems, using it in OS 9.x. Anyway, the most direct spiritual successor may be the outliner in Userland's Frontier and Radio Userland products. (I never took the time to fully learn the outliner, but that may be more because Userland's docs are sometimes incoherent and sometimes hard to track down.) But as a pure outliner (rather than a full-on scripting environment, which Frontier and RU are), I really enjoy OmniOutliner. OO is one of those apps (along with Graffle) that make me want to use OS X. Note: Both Frontier and Radio Userland are now carbonized for use in OS X. Radio is available as a free download with a 30-day trial, and is now targetted as a personal Web development platform. (It's market changes every couple of weeks, it seems. Last year, it was an MP3 player. I kid you not.) -- Jeremy Reichman From jan at storms.org Sun Feb 10 09:53:02 2002 From: jan at storms.org (Jan M.J. Storms) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: Re(2): Back-to-Basic feature suggestions Message-ID: <20020210175244.31533@smtp.xs4all.nl> >On the other hand, if the end result is better (I don't have OO yet, because >I don't have OSX yet, because I don't want to risk running More under it - >catch 22 - so I'm not in a position to say whether OO is indeed better...) >then I guess it will be worth my while to learn the new way. It does feel >like learning a Dvorak keyboard after a lifetime of Qwerty though - you have >to slow down a lot for a long time to be able to speed up a little. > >Richard R MORE runs in classic mode without a hitch. As for the development of OmniOutliner: definitely match MORE. You can't go wrong with that. Beyond it, there are the obvious things missing in MORE, like scripting, multiple columns, internet connectivity, paragraph and character level style sheets, etc. Sincerely, Jan M.J. Storms, M.A. >---------------------------------------------------------------------< STORMS W A T P scientific advice, training & process coaching Kempstraat 22rd, 2023 ES Haarlem, the Netherlands tel. +31 (23) 529 91 61 Web: - ePost >---------------------------------------------------------------------< From alfred.lang at psy.unibe.ch Mon Feb 11 06:00:02 2002 From: alfred.lang at psy.unibe.ch (Alfred Lang) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: An outline to be expanded and collapsed in a webpage(frame)? In-Reply-To: <20020210175244.31533@smtp.xs4all.nl> References: <20020210175244.31533@smtp.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Hello, My question concerns future development perspectives for OO in conjunction with OmniWeb. I am a longtime and happy till today user of MORE soon to switch from OS 9.2 to OS X. Besides all the other advantages I have the pet project to use put outline on the left frame of my homepage content and other pages (e.g. FAQs hierarchically organized questions programmed to present their answers in the main frame and/ort in separate windows). This would greatly ease the user's navigation and at any time give him cues about where she is and in what immediate environment, and also what related topics might be of interest. The oldfashioned Microsoft Help system does such a thing, rather clumsily. Joust is a JavaScript plug that does quite well with small outlines but is no longer maintained by its author. Strangely, I have never seen a page on the Userland & Co websites that does use such a thing as you would expect from their philosophy and skill. Or am I wrong in this? And frankly, I feel, Frontier, Manila and Radio -- thes lands or languages are not easy to enter for somebody primarily concerned with the content of his stuff. Now may question is: can I expect Omni Group to implement such a thing? And what are the prospects of coordinating OO and OW. I understand, OW is a browser. Yet OO is presented as an outliner to easily prepare html pages. Thanks in advance for some look in the probable future! Alfred -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Alfred Lang, Psychology, Univ. Bern, Switzerland --- alfred.lang@psy.unibe.ch Website: http://www.psy.unibe.ch/ukp/langpapers/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- From bcovey at omnigroup.com Mon Feb 11 14:35:59 2002 From: bcovey at omnigroup.com (Brian Covey) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: So, I'm just going to pop up here momentarily and say that I do read the list, and this bug got written up, but any bug reports and feature requests you want to be 100% sure we got should be sent to "omnioutliner@omnigroup.com"... =) Sincerely, Brian Covey Support Manager Omni Group > In the many MORE outlines that I have, I have underlined text within a > heading. When I import the outline, instead of showing the underlined > text, > it just shows the text, starting with a U and ending with a u. Is > there a > way you can have it import the actual underlining? > -- > Tom Straus From vp-lists at insanely-great.co.uk Tue Feb 12 07:35:59 2002 From: vp-lists at insanely-great.co.uk (Vincent Peace) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: Expand and Collapse all Message-ID: My apologies if this has been mentioned here before. It would be nice to see OO able to expand or collapse all sub trees when option clicking on a (disclosure) triangle - ala the Finder in list mode. No? -- Vincent Peace Web Application Developer Insanely Great Ltd http://www.insanely-great.co.uk/ http://www.igeek.co.uk/ From castaldo at olywa.net Tue Feb 12 10:08:00 2002 From: castaldo at olywa.net (Pat Castaldo) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: Expand and Collapse all In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This reminded me of a feature that I would think really cool: A "Hide Checked Items." Where they'd disappear from the view (and maybe indicate somewhere that there are hidden ones) but not get removed from the document. -pat.c At 3:34 PM +0000 2/12/2002, Vincent Peace wrote: >My apologies if this has been mentioned here before. It would be nice to see >OO able to expand or collapse all sub trees when option clicking on a >(disclosure) triangle - ala the Finder in list mode. No? > >-- >Vincent Peace >Web Application Developer >Insanely Great Ltd >http://www.insanely-great.co.uk/ >http://www.igeek.co.uk/ > >_______________________________________________ >OmniOutliner-Users mailing list >OmniOutliner-Users@omnigroup.com >http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/omnioutliner-users -- From joel at proofrunner.com Tue Feb 12 14:26:00 2002 From: joel at proofrunner.com (J. Davis) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: Oh Please Message-ID: Looks like I really started something. Regarding Brent's retorts: I said: "And of course, we haven't even begun to discuss MORE'S presentation capabilities, such as tree charts, bullet charts and slide shows." Brent replied with: "You know, I don't really care about presentation capabilities. I want a simple, easy to use outliner. If I wanted a bloated presentation tool, I'd buy PowerPoint." My response: Brendt, within your educational educational environment, don't you routinely present ideas for collaboration or review? If you buy the fact that an outline is the foundation of a project, wouldn't it be nice to easily and quickly present those ideas? And your implication that you don't want a 'bloated' presentation tool is very telling. If you knew MORE (sorry, couldn't resist) you'd know that it's approach to presentations is simply a different way to view outlines, just like it's Tree function. Bloat? It's bare bones. No fades. No transition tools. No animations. What bloat? I suspect that you're criticizing a product that you don't know anything about! I said: "As far as I see it, there are only four issues to consider regarding further development of OmniOutliner. 1.) Inventory MORE's features 2.) create your own outline interface that mimics that of MORE, and 3.) do so by liberating yourself from Apple's Application Kit framework. You simply can't expect to provide MORE'S rich user interface using standard-issue Application Kit interface widgets." Brent replied with: "This is a pretty dumb idea. The clarity and simplicity of Omni's products stems from the use of the AppKit. Further, for them to roll their own interface kit and more importantly, to maintain it, would mean that OO would likely be priced in the $100+ range, not the $20 range." And went on to say: "...and someone suggests *throwing it away* because they don't think the system can give a 'rich user interface.' Oh, please." My response: Brent, you'd benefit from your own advice. Just as you admonished Max with "Read my post more carefully," I suggest you do the same to avoid misquoting me as a means to further your position. With regards to Apple's interface, please show me where I advocated "*throwing it away*". I never said that. It's clear that you fancy yourself as somewhat of an expert on the AppKit. Maybe later we'll take your programming bravado for a test drive to see just how qualified you are to draw conclusions on Mac programming. But for now let me say that the fluidity of MORE stemmed from it's non-standard GUI. I feel that the beauty and originality of MORE arises from it's interface tweaks. For example, the mouse pointer changes as you move it around the outline, being influenced by the what whatever actions are available. Normally a solid arrow, it becomes white (an outline) indicating areas where you can double click to expand or collapse a headline. If the pointer is gray, it signifies that there are no subheadlines to be expanded. As you move to the left of the the text, the pointer takes on the form of a little document icon, indicating where you can double-click to open a new or existing document window. After a couple minutes of use, these pointers become provide rapid, essential insight as to the construct of one's outline, making navigation a snap. These type of tweaks don't require 'throwing out' the whole toolkit Brent. What they do require is that developers need to think beyond the box to embrace what's good and find innovative ways to implement desirable additions. My goodness, IBM's ViaVoice let's you just talk, and it does the typing for you! Imagine the constraints they were faced with! Brent stated: "MORE had a bevy of small, flat, b&w buttons that were absolutely unrecognizable unless you spent time with those hefty manuals you waxed rhapsodic about. "Rich user interface?" Feh." My response: What on earth are you referring to? MORE is exceptionally intuitive. And regarding the 'flat, b&w buttons' you refer to, what's that all about? ANYONE can learn to use MORE's fundamental features in 2 minutes. And the greater the outlining requirement, MORE's feature set continues to pass muster. And incidentally, have you even seen the manuals? I think not. Criticizing their size is akin to a child picking up a small dictionary to look up a word, because they think it would be more work to find the word in a dictionary with more pages. The organization, cross-referencing, writing clarity and indexing are what matters. I said: "As food for thought, I leave you with the System Requirements of MORE II: A Mac Plus, SE or II; 1 MB of RAM; one 800K floppy drive and a hard disk; and System 4.1 or higher...amazing. And FOURTEEN YEARS LATER on my 670MHZ Titanium sporting 1GB of RAM and 40GB hard drive I'm still running MORE in Classic mode. Because nothing comes even close." Brent replied with: "Good. Keep running it. If you want a native version, pester Symantec to pick it back up. There are those of us who like OO's interface pretty much the way it is, are pretty satisfied with the feature set and look forward to where the Omni guys are going with it." ...and continued with... "We don't want a MORE clone...we need OmniOutliner. *You* need MORE. So keep using it, and let the Omni people do their own thing." My response: "We. WE???" Read the threads, Brent--speak for yourself. Jan M.J. Storms, Sun, 10 Feb 2002 said..."As for the development of OmniOutliner: definitely match MORE. You can't go wrong with that." and... Richard R, Sat, 09 Feb 2002..."I'm inclined to side with folks who want OO to emulate More almost completely, commands, buttons and all." and... max30, Fri Feb 8 20:54:01 "I think that those who know outliners acknowledge More as the best of breed and worthy of emulation. I don't know why anyone would take a position against this." "More people need more than you might imagine." But maybe you're right Brent. Let's not share our ideas. Let's Not seek out and discuss desirable features for inclusion in this evolving product-- even if the authors intended this forum for that purpose. Let's not waste time deconstructing historically important programs like MORE, ThinkTank, Acta, et.al. That way, none of us will run the risk of suggesting any more "DUMB IDEAS" as you chose to characterize mine. Enough of this nonsense. Let us focus on providing the OmniOutliner crew with meaningful insight and help it to grow into something worthy of its adoptive lineage. From elakin at lewis.com Wed Feb 13 12:26:00 2002 From: elakin at lewis.com (elakin@lewis.com) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: OmniOutliner-Users digest, Vol 1 #32 - 1 msg Message-ID: Greetings: I am a long-time PC user (since the first AT) that has recently rejoined the Apple camp (My first computer was a Franklin Ace, an Apple II clone). Last year I bought a sawtooth G4 for home and this year I bought a 933G4 for work. I am a great fan of outlining programs and just "discovered" Omni Outline on my drive. I did own ThinkTank but, I have never tried More. There is an opening for an outline program because MS does such a poor job of it in Word. I have spent hours trying to turn Word's outlining program into something useful through configuration with no luck to-date. My first impression with OmniOutliner is that it is rather sparse in what it sets out to do. The interface is fine, but the output options are limited and it requires considerable clean up if exported to Word as a RTF. What I am looking for, actually is Word's outline interface with logical, standard formatting. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /mailman/archive/omnioutliner-users/attachments/20020213/9b286ec1/attachment.html From Maxwell.Thibodeaux at usma.edu Wed Feb 13 13:22:01 2002 From: Maxwell.Thibodeaux at usma.edu (Thibodeaux, M. MAJ ENG) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: Feature Requests go Here Message-ID: <21C10221747AD3118E9D00E0293851AA06B31FAD@exmail20.usma.army.mil> I noticed a post not long ago redirecting all feature requests to omnioutliner@omnigroup.com. So it is probably more effective to forward our feature requests rather than arguing for them here. I've already asked for Folding, Find/Mark and Gather, Cloning, and closer integration with OmniGraph. You know what would be nice is being able to import OmniGraphs into OO. Max From tedg at alum.mit.edu Thu Feb 14 05:24:05 2002 From: tedg at alum.mit.edu (Ted Goranson) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:29:55 2005 Subject: Back-to-Basic feature suggestions Message-ID: >I started out with ThinkTank, used Acta in both the desk accessory >and application, and finally MORE. I have used MORE virtually every >day since I bought it and thank my lucky stars that it still works >under the 'Classic (system9) mode in OSX. ... >With all that being said, and seemingly universal acknowledgement >that MORE is THE standard, why waste time soliciting suggestions on >featur