From ziyaoz at earthlink.net Fri May 1 00:22:53 1998 From: ziyaoz at earthlink.net (Ziya Oz) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true Message-ID: <199805010710.AAA21321@denmark.it.earthlink.net> On 5/1/98 2:51 AM, Jonathan Hendry wrote: >That could only happen if Apple decides that Quicktime is their only >product, and kills everything else. Quicktime is important for Apple, >but not as important as Yellow Box. Try as I might, I just can't see Apple (the company) making any serious inroads into the Enterprise market. It's not in Apple's DNA. Yellow Box, EOF and WebObjects might be good dev tools for this market, but not coming from Apple. A company like Microsoft (or, much less likely, another one that plays both in the UNIX and Windows market like HP or Compaq/Digital) could do much more (and faster) with these technologies than Apple can aspire to. Why not leverage that and recoup the $430 million (paid to get them) and gain further advantage with QuickTime, which Apple has been able to nurture well? QT is Apple's last best technology and something that can propel them into markets that can provide growth for them. YB/EOF/WO are the Apple technologies most desirable to the rest of the world that Apple can (learn to) do without. Ziya From sanguish at digifix.com Fri May 1 00:29:10 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true In-Reply-To: <199805010710.AAA21321@denmark.it.earthlink.net> References: <199805010710.AAA21321@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <199805010729.DAA06963@digifix.com> Ziya Oz wrote: > On 5/1/98 2:51 AM, Jonathan Hendry wrote: > >That could only happen if Apple decides that Quicktime is their only > >product, and kills everything else. Quicktime is important for Apple, > >but not as important as Yellow Box. > > Try as I might, I just can't see Apple (the company) making any serious > inroads into the Enterprise market. It's not in Apple's DNA. Yellow Box, > EOF and WebObjects might be good dev tools for this market, but not > coming from Apple. > YellowBox is much more important than just the Enterprise market. It gives Apple Developers the incentive to stick with Apple by eliminating the need to choose Apple OR Microsoft. You get both for the same engineering costs. From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Fri May 1 00:25:48 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true References: <199805010710.AAA21321@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <199805010725.CAA04003@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> > On 5/1/98 2:51 AM, Jonathan Hendry wrote: > >That could only happen if Apple decides that Quicktime is their only > >product, and kills everything else. Quicktime is important for Apple, > >but not as important as Yellow Box. > > Try as I might, I just can't see Apple (the company) making any serious > inroads into the Enterprise market. It's not in Apple's DNA. Yellow Box, > EOF and WebObjects might be good dev tools for this market, but not > coming from Apple. > The enterprise has nothing to do with it. Apple needs YellowBox to keep their OS alive, because the MacOS toolbox and API's are outdated, crufty, and old. Nobody's starting major new Mac toolbox apps unless they absolutely have to. At least YellowBox gets them onto Windows too. Apple needs YellowBox if they want people to write Mac software. No Mac software, no Mac. No Mac, no Apple. - Jon From ziyaoz at earthlink.net Fri May 1 01:01:40 1998 From: ziyaoz at earthlink.net (Ziya Oz) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true Message-ID: <199805010748.AAA02410@denmark.it.earthlink.net> On 5/1/98 3:35 AM, Scott Anguish wrote: > YellowBox is much more important than just the Enterprise market. > > It gives Apple Developers the incentive to stick with Apple by >eliminating the need to choose Apple OR Microsoft. Well, those very developers can use Microsoft YB to create software for the Mac. And the reason why they want to do that is that Apple would be making serious growth gains in education, home, content creation, cable/TV/web markets with technologies built around QuickTime, and not because Apple is bleeding to death trying to convince the business/enterprise markets to take it seriously. Ziya From ziyaoz at earthlink.net Fri May 1 01:21:05 1998 From: ziyaoz at earthlink.net (Ziya Oz) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true Message-ID: <199805010808.BAA07944@denmark.it.earthlink.net> On 5/1/98 3:43 AM, Andrew Abernathy wrote: >Too late - WebObjects has _already_ made serious inroads into the >enterprise market. I'm not trying to doubt what you're positing but I have never seen actual figures as to how many WO licenses Apple has sold since acquiring it and what money they've made on it. I'd love to see it. >(Indeed, WebObjects is where the good majority of our >business is nowadays.) You might argue that that won't continue now that >Apple owns and markets WebObjects, and maybe it will indeed drop off - but >Apple's had WebObjects for over a year now, and we've seen the market >continue to grow at a good clip. About three months ago, I emailed an analyst/editor at one of the largest consultancy groups (which has a sterling reputation in the printing/publishing industries) and asked him when they were going to review/recommend WebObjects, as they had a lengthy review of WO competitors from Kiva to SilverStream. He said they had published one two years ago when WO first came out and recommended it then since it was miles ahead of everything else. But, since it was acquired by Apple it dropped off their radar screen. I asked him why. He responded that he actually surveyed marketing/advertising efforts made by each of those products and concluded that WO's had dropped off noticeably since the Apple acquistion. He said he had no idea where Apple was taking the product. It's just one anectode. And I like WO but unless yours is one of the very corporations Apple's reps have targeted, you wouldn't even know that WO exist today. I hope that changes. >And all indications from my point of view is that Yellow Box is going to >be the future for Apple; I guess that we'll find out at WWDC. It's not so >much enterprise-oriented, certainly. The programmer, licensing, financial, hosting and hardware requirements to develop with and deploy WO clearly put it at a level only a select group of corporations can afford today. I think a review of current WO customers would bear this out. Ziya From stefan.huy at stud.uni-hannover.de Fri May 1 05:05:07 1998 From: stefan.huy at stud.uni-hannover.de (Stefan Huy) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: Re(2): How to GUI Message-ID: <199805011204.OAA00348@studserv.stud.uni-hannover.de> >>I can't use two applications at once, but I can switch between them >>rapidly. I don't count something running in the background as using two >>applications. Can anyone use two different applications simultaneously? >> >By your definition, people don't use two apps at the same time since the >foreground app is the one you're working on and background apps don't >count. Here is some of my personal usage. For Internet downloads, like say >a 15 MB file (Communicator, game demos, etc. I do it surprisingly a lot), >I'd like to know how much has been downloaded without having to switch to >the application. For Win95, this amount is continuously updated in the >task's button on the taskbar (whence it's minimized). I usually have Excel, >KaleidaGraph, an FTP program and a couple of terminals to a Unix >workstation open at the same and all doing something to the same data. It >would be nice to have a CLI interface (like tcsh), a spreadsheet, and a >plotting program all on the same machine just operating on one file, but >that's unavailable to me right now. I'm sure the programmers who do 3 hour >compiles have better experience at it. Hm, I don't know, but it seems that I am the only one wo's running his Mac with 5 to 10 Apps open at a time, with many of them doing their task in the background. For Internet Explorerr on the Mac you have a download manager, displaying all the downloads, including the download rate and a progress bar for each of them. In addition IE gives the files being downloaded different icons with a little progressbar inside, so that you alway can look at their download state, if they a placed at the desktop. Most of the other background stuff mentioned are Internet tools (FTP, TELNET etc.) and there is a video monitor running now and then :) So the statement that MacOS does no multitasking simply isn't true. Ok, the tasks aren't preempted and the context switches seem to consume more time than necessary, but actually it works. And though I prefer Rhapsody, I still find MacOS system usable for this kind of multitasking. >>NextStep (sorry, just can't take the all-caps anymore :) can certainly do >>more tasks at once, but I don't think that the user is using more apps at >>once. >> >Services and Bundles changes everything. For Mail.app, I could always find >the proper synonym or the definition of a word by highlighting a word and >pressing CMD = which brings up Webster.app, or reformat text by pressing a >certain CMD key in a certain app I can't quite recall right now. After >leaving NEXTSTEP (when NeXT pretty much became a Windows tools developer >and WebObjects company and left it on maintenance mode), I got NT. I got MS >Bookshelf. Then I bought a dictionary and thesaurus, and let me tell you, >that wasn't that much fun compared to NEXTSTEP which was just a CMD-key >away. This applies to any app btw, not just Mail. Yes, Services are a great (and simple) productivity extension to the whole system. >In all these cases, it was always an advantage know what apps where running >and what they were doing. Having it hidden underneath the app icon in >MacOS's menubar would be uncomfortable to say the least. Using it to switch >applications would be even worse. Well, there are so many task bars out there for MacOS. Or just use one of those nifty extension for the MAcOS' control strip to have services on tasks available, that you simply don't get with the Windows task bar. OneClick also does a great job here. >Additionally, once you start to tax your >system in CPU, disk, and memory usage, it starts to become important to >know what the status of your system is so you can do something about it, or >just know what's going on. Agreed. Even if you simply shouldn't have to care about such things nor have to tune the system "by hand". cu -Stefan __Stefan Huy___________________________________________________________ ____ ______ mailto:huy@stud.uni-hannover.de ________ http://www.stud.uni-hannover.de/~huy ______________________________________________________________________ From Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk Fri May 1 04:41:12 1998 From: Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk (mmalcolm crawford) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805011141.MAA03817@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> You wrote: > > However what's interesting is that with Rhapsody Apple doesn't > > necessarily have to compete with Wintel, just with Windows. > > apple still has to compete with intel, because that's where they get money. > > if apple decides to drop the ppc or adopt intel too, and they decide to > make a macos emulator environment for their intel machines, then they could > concentrate on competing with windows... but for now they do need to > compete with intel as long as they remain in the hw business... > At the moment, yes -- notice I wrote "with Rhapsody", and "doesn't necessarily"... mmalc. From Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk Fri May 1 04:36:11 1998 From: Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk (mmalcolm crawford) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true In-Reply-To: <199805010808.BAA07944@denmark.it.earthlink.net> References: <199805010808.BAA07944@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <199805011136.MAA03811@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Ziya wrote: > And I like WO but unless yours is one of the very > corporations Apple's reps have targeted, you wouldn't even know that WO > exist today. I hope that changes. > This is simply Not True. We're seeing increased interest in WebObjects from a wide range of people, many of whom most definitely have not been contacted by Apple reps. > The programmer, licensing, financial, hosting and hardware requirements > to develop with and deploy WO clearly put it at a level only a select > group of corporations can afford today. I think a review of current WO > customers would bear this out. > Umm, WO is availabe to education for $99 -- that includes unlimited level deployment. Best wishes, mmalc. From Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk Fri May 1 04:31:54 1998 From: Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk (mmalcolm crawford) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true In-Reply-To: <199805010710.AAA21321@denmark.it.earthlink.net> References: <199805010710.AAA21321@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <199805011131.MAA03805@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Ziya wrote: > Try as I might, I just can't see Apple (the company) making any serious > inroads into the Enterprise market. It's not in Apple's DNA. Yellow Box, > EOF and WebObjects might be good dev tools for this market, but not > coming from Apple. > Our customers think different. > A company like Microsoft (or, much less likely, another one that plays > both in the UNIX and Windows market like HP or Compaq/Digital) could do > much more (and faster) with these technologies than Apple can aspire to. > > Why not leverage that and recoup the $430 million (paid to get them) and > gain further advantage with QuickTime, which Apple has been able to > nurture well? > > QT is Apple's last best technology and something that can propel them > into markets that can provide growth for them. > The enterprise market does not provide an opportunity for growth?! > YB/EOF/WO are the Apple technologies most desirable to the rest of > the world that Apple can (learn to) do without. > Like developers...? And WO is of no interest to Apple's current customers?! Best wishes, mmalc. From Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk Fri May 1 03:10:54 1998 From: Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk (mmalcolm crawford) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: Another debate on YB for Solaris In-Reply-To: <199804301846.OAA06429@bretweir.total.net> References: <199804301846.OAA06429@bretweir.total.net> Message-ID: <199805011010.LAA03761@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Louis wrote: > >> Sun would benefit from having a GUI, > >> > >I don't think Sun would be impressed by that argument at all. > > > > I was refering by "having a GUI" a complete GUI that allowed a complete > administration of a network, rather than having to go to a cli. > Why do I get the impression that some people here have never used Unix, and still believe that the only interface Unix has is the CLI..? Solaris certainly does have GUI tools for tasks like user management, and various other things. The user management tool is good enough that the first time I used it I was able to do what I needed without referring to the documentation. I hope that the tools for Rhapsody will be more elegant and easier to use, and offer greater flexibility and familiarity to Mac users. > If you > had the choice between setting a Sun by a GUI (well done, of course) > rather than with a CLI; what would you choose... This is what I meant. > It depends what I was wanting to do. Since you asked, sometimes *for me*, the CLI is better. Please please please don't start this debate again. Best wishes, mmalc. From lavoie at cst.ca Fri May 1 06:26:06 1998 From: lavoie at cst.ca (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: YB Perception on NT/95 Message-ID: Recently, someone pointed out a details on how OpenStep is implemented on NT. I thought this details was somewhat scary; What was said is that, although OpenStep (and presumably, Rhapsody for NT/95) uses "real" NT/95 windows, their actual content are drawn using DPS and YB's code, preventing such things as using QA automation tools. I was wondering if someone could clarify a few things: -How does OpenStep reacts to user UI color changes in NT/95? (does it change it's own colors to be more consistant?) -Does this mean no macro utilities (QuickKeys) work inside OS applications? -How do users perceive OS applications on NT/95? The reason I ask these things is that, until not long ago, MicroSoft used their cross development tools to bring software to the Macintosh. Those applications were generally badly perceived by the Mac community, and not seen as "real" Mac applications. They often looked un-Mac-like, felt sluggish, took loads of RAM and disk space, and did not function properly. Martin-Gilles Lavoie | "No! Try not. Do, or do not. Mac OS programmer, CS&T | There is no try." lavoie@cst.ca | -- Yoda on error handling From pat at qhp.queensu.ca Fri May 1 07:27:53 1998 From: pat at qhp.queensu.ca (Pat Taylor) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true In-Reply-To: <199805010633.XAA06490@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Ziya wrote: >How far is the day when Apple sells (not licenses, sells) Yellow Box (and >related technologies that can be used with Windows) to Microsoft in >exchange for Microsoft not competing with QuickTime for at least three >years and bundling it with Windows? The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind ... ______________________________________________________________ Patrick Taylor Kingston, Ontario, CANADA mailto:pat@qhp.queensu.ca http://www.stepwise.com "These are my principles, if you don't like them ... I've got others." --Groucho Marx From pat at qhp.queensu.ca Fri May 1 08:10:55 1998 From: pat at qhp.queensu.ca (Pat Taylor) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true In-Reply-To: <199805010808.BAA07944@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Ziya wrote: >The programmer, licensing, financial, hosting and hardware requirements >to develop with and deploy WO clearly put it at a level only a select >group of corporations can afford today. I think a review of current WO >customers would bear this out. Hmmm ... if you examine the licensing costs of Netscape Application Server (formerly Kiva) or pretty much any other web application software, you'll see that WebObjects is actually quite competitive. And few of these development environments are as mature as WebObjects ... As an example, Netscape Application Server will set you back $25,000 per cpu on NT and $35,000 per cpu on Solaris, HP-UX and IRIX. Fact is that ANY robust web application development environment is still too expensive for the mass market not just WebObjects. However, the Yellow Box will include runtimes of both WebObjects and Enterprise Objects Framework, so the number of potential seats using WO/EOF share will grow along with the Yellow Box. Cheers, Patrick ______________________________________________________________ Patrick Taylor Kingston, Ontario, CANADA mailto:pat@qhp.queensu.ca http://www.stepwise.com "These are my principles, if you don't like them ... I've got others." --Groucho Marx From ellis at nfts-createc.org.uk Fri May 1 09:07:29 1998 From: ellis at nfts-createc.org.uk (Ellis Pritchard) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: YB Perception on NT/95 References: Message-ID: <3549F341.661F32F2@nfts-createc.org.uk> Hi, Martin-Gilles Lavoie wrote: > Recently, someone pointed out a details on how OpenStep is implemented on > NT. I thought this details was somewhat scary; > > What was said is that, although OpenStep (and presumably, Rhapsody for > NT/95) uses "real" NT/95 windows, their actual content are drawn using DPS > and YB's code, preventing such things as using QA automation tools. Indeed, this is the case (at least with OpenStep 4.2); although actually QA Automation tools can pick up Menu commands (menus are attached to the window). > -How do users perceive OS applications on NT/95? The one major difference is that the Multiple Document View (MDI) system is not supported; personally I find this one of the most annoying features of Windows, but it does mean that OpenStep applications don't look like Windows ones; e.g. the supplied TextEdit application; every new document opens another top-level window with it's own Menu (and it's own entry on the Taskbar) which can get messy. I'm not sure how tricky it would be to force applications to use MDI Child windows for every window opened; e.g. NSApplication opens an CMDIFrameWnd by default (assuming MFC), to which it attaches the NSMenu, and then all NSWindows are effectively CMDIChildWnds; the NSWindows are then the only things that have PostScript rendered into them. Thus applications which open multiple documents open them within the same frame and menu context. Surely this would be pretty simple to implement? > The reason I ask these things is that, until not long ago, MicroSoft used > their cross development tools to bring software to the Macintosh. Those > applications were generally badly perceived by the Mac community, and not > seen as "real" Mac applications. They often looked un-Mac-like, felt > sluggish, took loads of RAM and disk space, and did not function properly. I agree, it's dead important; and as to what one can do about any new controls added to Windows in the future (e.g. by IE), I'm not sure, except to make sure that the MiscKit dudes keep up! Ellis. From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Fri May 1 09:20:21 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: YB Perception on NT/95 References: <3549F341.661F32F2@nfts-createc.org.uk> Message-ID: <199805011620.LAA04228@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> >The one major difference is that the Multiple Document View (MDI) system is >not supported; personally I find this one of the most annoying features of >Windows, but it does mean that OpenStep applications don't look like Windows >ones; e.g. the supplied TextEdit application; every new document opens another >top-level window with it's own Menu (and it's own entry on the Taskbar) which >can get messy. Last I recall, Microsoft was deprecating MDI in favor of 'SDI', which is the OpenStep way. Delphi, Navigator, and Internet Explorer all use SDI. Newer versions of old apps (MS Office, Painter, Quicken) still use MDI, though. - Jon From louispel at total.net Fri May 1 10:28:23 1998 From: louispel at total.net (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: Another debate on YB for Solaris Message-ID: <199805011727.NAA14932@bretweir.total.net> mmalcolm crawford at "Malcolm_Crawford@plsys.co.uk" said on 01/05/98 10:19 : >Louis wrote: >> >> Sun would benefit from having a GUI, >> >> >> >I don't think Sun would be impressed by that argument at all. >> > >> >> I was refering by "having a GUI" a complete GUI that allowed a complete >> administration of a network, rather than having to go to a cli. >> >Why do I get the impression that some people here have never used Unix, >and >still believe that the only interface Unix has is the CLI..? > >Solaris certainly does have GUI tools for tasks like user management, and >various other things. The user management tool is good enough that the >first >time I used it I was able to do what I needed without referring to the >documentation. > I know. >I hope that the tools for Rhapsody will be more elegant and easier to use, >and offer greater flexibility and familiarity to Mac users. This is all I meant by this thread. Sincerely, L. Pelletier. From sal at panix.com Fri May 1 10:41:16 1998 From: sal at panix.com (Sal Denaro) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: YB Perception on NT/95 In-Reply-To: <199805011620.LAA04228@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 May 1998, Jonathan Hendry wrote: > >The one major difference is that the Multiple Document View (MDI) system is > >not supported; personally I find this one of the most annoying features of > Last I recall, Microsoft was deprecating MDI in favor of 'SDI', which > is the OpenStep way. Delphi, Navigator, and Internet Explorer all use SDI. > Newer versions of old apps (MS Office, Painter, Quicken) still use MDI, > though. IIRC, the MSDN articles on MDI state that it should only be used if all the windows in an App display the same kind of data (like a WP or SpreedSheet) It should not be used in PIMs of Database front ends where each MDI window shows a different type of form. I think this makes sense as a rule of thumb. This explains why OutLook97 is SDI. That makes me wonder why IE isn't MDI, since every page it opens is of a HTML page and why VCpp is MDI, since it has source, resource, output and project windows all in the same MDI frame. Both of these Apps were writen after the Win95 UI guidelines were printed. I guess MS can't even stick to it's own standards. :) If anyone cares, I'll do a search on this and post the results. Personaly, I couldn't care one way or another about MDI vs SDI. As long as I can restore or minimize all the windows in my App at the same time, I'm just fine with it. -- sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro "The reality of the software business today is that if you find something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral From glenn at suntimes.com Fri May 1 11:00:57 1998 From: glenn at suntimes.com (Glenn Carnagey) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: Another debate on YB for Solaris In-Reply-To: <199805011010.LAA03761@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Message-ID: <199805011802.NAA24593@clavin.interaccess.com> At 07:20 AM 5/1/98 -0700, you wrote: >Why do I get the impression that some people here have never used Unix, and >still believe that the only interface Unix has is the CLI..? > >Solaris certainly does have GUI tools for tasks like user management, and >various other things. The user management tool is good enough that the first >time I used it I was able to do what I needed without referring to the >documentation. >From a user standpoint, I think Solaris is nearing the point where the CLI is more a luxury for advanced users to get power, flexibility and speed as opposed to something you sometimes have to resort to due to a deficient CDE client. Took aeons, but I think they're getting there. And, for some, it's a comfort to know the familiar toolset is there even when you don't need it. This was definitely true of the DR1 as well, one of the first things I had to do was go in and manually make a resolve.conf. I wouldn't necessarily say the admintool is there yet, but it's definitely come a long way, as have the package manager and the installation scripts and the various other CDE tools. One thing I'd love to see Apple steal from Sun is the multiple workspaces and an easy way to flip between them, or less good, a scrolling virtual workspace like with Windows. Almost as cool as the old screen program that let you flip between various telnet sessions at a single VT100. ;-) >I hope that the tools for Rhapsody will be more elegant and easier to use, >and offer greater flexibility and familiarity to Mac users. Yeah, me too. But I'm also looking forward to having the UI, YB, Mac Apps, Unix Apps, *and* crontab and solid uptime and system logging and signal levels and shell scripts and dumping nightly new db records and piping the good stuff to mail, all without my active participation. Et cetera. YMMV. > jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com > Last I recall, Microsoft was deprecating MDI in favor of 'SDI', which > is the OpenStep way. Delphi, Navigator, and Internet Explorer all use SDI. > Newer versions of old apps (MS Office, Painter, Quicken) still use MDI, > though. True. Ironically, the MDI app where I personally find it most annoying is Eudora. Seems like SDI is generally gaining momentum, however. _____________________________________ Glenn Carnagey Webmaster, Chicago Sun-Times 401 N. Wabash, Rm. 513 glenn@suntimes.com, www.suntimes.com 312.321.2603, fax 312.321.2849 _____________________________________ From jg at cs.umass.edu Fri May 1 11:04:02 1998 From: jg at cs.umass.edu (John Greene) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: Ha ha In-Reply-To: <199805011136.MAA03811@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Message-ID: >From www.macosrumors.com >Friday, April 31st, 1:08 PM EDT > ^^^^ >A severe head flu has struck a sizable enough part of the Rumors team as to >make a full update today impossible; however, through a virally induced haze, >a trickle of information has flowed in. It is summarized below: > > Let's see: How did that jingle go? "30 days has November.... ...." Just thought I'd share :) -- . Qapla', . ' John Greene - Software Specialist . * . Computer Science Computing Facility ` University of Massachusetts Amherst Web: Mac: -jg (jg@cs.umass.edu) LET'S GO FLYERS - THINK DIFFERENT From petro at playboy.com Fri May 1 13:55:35 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: YB Perception on NT/95 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:01 PM -0600 5/1/98, Sal Denaro wrote: >frame. Both of these Apps were writen after the Win95 UI guidelines were >printed. I guess MS can't even stick to it's own standards. :) Nawww, Really? From sanguish at digifix.com Fri May 1 13:39:23 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true In-Reply-To: <199805010748.AAA02410@denmark.it.earthlink.net> References: <199805010748.AAA02410@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <199805012039.QAA09584@digifix.com> Ziya Oz wrote: > On 5/1/98 3:35 AM, Scott Anguish wrote: > > >YellowBox is much more important than just the Enterprise market. > > > >It gives Apple Developers the incentive to stick with Apple by > >eliminating the need to choose Apple OR Microsoft. > > Well, those very developers can use Microsoft YB to create software for > the Mac. Just what is the Microsoft YB that you are referring to? > And the reason why they want to do that is that Apple would be > making serious growth gains in education, home, content creation, > cable/TV/web markets with technologies built around QuickTime, and not > because Apple is bleeding to death trying to convince the > business/enterprise markets to take it seriously. > You aren't listing to what is being said.. > > > > Ziya From ziyaoz at earthlink.net Fri May 1 14:09:21 1998 From: ziyaoz at earthlink.net (Ziya Oz) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true Message-ID: <199805012056.NAA15633@denmark.it.earthlink.net> On 5/1/98 4:43 PM, Scott Anguish wrote: > Just what is the Microsoft YB that you are referring to? The one Apple sells to Microsoft in exchange for relief on QuickTime. Ziya From louispel at total.net Fri May 1 14:13:26 1998 From: louispel at total.net (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true Message-ID: <199805012112.RAA09036@bretweir.total.net> Ziya Oz at "ziyaoz@earthlink.net" said on 01/05/98 16:57 : >> Just what is the Microsoft YB that you are referring to? > >The one Apple sells to Microsoft in exchange for relief on QuickTime. > >Ziya Uhh?? What is this about? From ziyaoz at earthlink.net Fri May 1 14:39:02 1998 From: ziyaoz at earthlink.net (Ziya Oz) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true Message-ID: <199805012126.OAA08486@denmark.it.earthlink.net> On 5/1/98 5:19 PM, Louis Pelletier wrote: >>The one Apple sells to Microsoft in exchange for relief on QuickTime. >Uhh?? What is this about? I proposed Apple selling YB to Microsoft in exchange for Microsoft not competing with QuickTime for at least three years and bundling it with Windows. Ziya From rhapsody at willamesd.k12.or.us Fri May 1 14:33:51 1998 From: rhapsody at willamesd.k12.or.us (rhapsody) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true In-Reply-To: <199805012112.RAA09036@bretweir.total.net> Message-ID: >Ziya Oz at "ziyaoz@earthlink.net" said on 01/05/98 16:57 : > >>> Just what is the Microsoft YB that you are referring to? >> >>The one Apple sells to Microsoft in exchange for relief on QuickTime. >> >>Ziya > >Uhh?? What is this about? i think he's refering to a writer's opinion that apple should sell the yellow box to microsoft in exchange for microsoft not competing with quicktime. heh, heh, yeah, i know... anyway, my two cents: all apple needs to do is convince developers (yes, including windows developers) that the yellow box is the perfect development environment, much easier that microsofts tools; plus they have the ability to deploy on an additional platform. that's all apple needs to do. it shouldn't be that hard if the yellow box is as good as touted. then developers could just ship the yellow box on the cd with their programs. once those programs are using the yellow box, even if the company doesn't care to market a rhapsody version apple can still tout that it said programs will work on its platform, thus increasing its developer base to include previously windoze developers. my two cents. ?? whaddaya think ?? From sanguish at digifix.com Fri May 1 14:50:00 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true In-Reply-To: <199805012056.NAA15633@denmark.it.earthlink.net> References: <199805012056.NAA15633@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <199805012150.RAA10162@digifix.com> Ziya Oz wrote: > On 5/1/98 4:43 PM, Scott Anguish wrote: > > >Just what is the Microsoft YB that you are referring to? > > The one Apple sells to Microsoft in exchange for relief on QuickTime. > This is delusional... Give away the only API advantage that Apple has that gives them any chance at a future so that Microsoft can massage it just like they have Java so that its is Microsoft centric.. A totally insane idea... I can't see anyone on the board being left after the shareholders killed them off.. From louispel at total.net Fri May 1 14:57:11 1998 From: louispel at total.net (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true Message-ID: <199805012156.RAA06941@pablo.total.net> Ziya Oz at "ziyaoz@earthlink.net" said on 01/05/98 17:29 : >On 5/1/98 5:19 PM, Louis Pelletier wrote: > >>>The one Apple sells to Microsoft in exchange for relief on QuickTime. > >>Uhh?? What is this about? > >I proposed Apple selling YB to Microsoft in exchange for Microsoft not >competing with QuickTime for at least three years and bundling it with >Windows. > >Ziya > lolol... I'm sorry to tell you this, but you are so stupid!!! You are one of those naive people thinking that if M$ has not already baught Apple, Compaq, Sun, SGI, DELL, Netscape and others; that this is because they didn't want to... You also are so stupid to think that M$ has something to offer instead of QuickTime... Maybe you also think that M$ is a great company, that they invented the computer and that, by 10 years, this planet will be called Micro$oft instead of Earth... Maybe you also think that Gates brought us all that wonderfull technology because God gave it to him? Maybe you're also wondering why M$ hasn't already bought the US government instead of fiddling with the DOJ? lolol I don't know if you will just be rejected from this list, anyway, I've just added an action in Emailer to put you were you belong: the trash. Louis Pelletier (still laughing.. lol) From ghp at techline.com Fri May 1 15:04:59 1998 From: ghp at techline.com (Grays Harbor Paper, L.P.) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true In-Reply-To: <199805012150.RAA10162@digifix.com> Message-ID: <199805012207.PAA03909@mx2.techline.com> Finally, some one puts this thread to death! At 02:52 PM 5/1/98 -0700, Scott Anguish wrote: >Ziya Oz wrote: >> On 5/1/98 4:43 PM, Scott Anguish wrote: >> >> >Just what is the Microsoft YB that you are referring to? >> >> The one Apple sells to Microsoft in exchange for relief on QuickTime. >> > > This is delusional... > > Give away the only API advantage that Apple has that gives them any >chance at a future so that Microsoft can massage it just like they have Java >so that its is Microsoft centric.. > > A totally insane idea... I can't see anyone on the board being left >after the shareholders killed them off.. > > > Grays Harbor Paper, L.P. Technical Department 801 23rd Street Hoquiam, Washington 98550 (360) 538-5713 ghp@techline.com contact: Ben Hohman Be well, do good work, and keep in touch. -G. Kellior The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the shore of imagination. Think Different. From cmh at greendragon.com Fri May 1 12:57:10 1998 From: cmh at greendragon.com (Chris Hanson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:12 AM -0500 5/1/98, Pat Taylor wrote: >Hmmm ... if you examine the licensing costs of Netscape Application Server >(formerly Kiva) or pretty much any other web application software, you'll >see that WebObjects is actually quite competitive. And few of these >development environments are as mature as WebObjects ... And how badly are these Web development environments being beaten in the market by the comination of msql, dbm, or flat files, Apache, and Perl? Or even IIS and ASP on NT? For a lot of people on a limited budget -- especially ISPs that do small-scale web design, internal groups building small-scale intranets, and small businesses -- these are the only real options for building web applications. >Fact is that ANY robust web application development environment is still >too expensive for the mass market not just WebObjects. However, the Yellow >Box will include runtimes of both WebObjects and Enterprise Objects >Framework, so the number of potential seats using WO/EOF share will grow >along with the Yellow Box. It bears repeating that Apple's development environments for all of the above (OpenStep [Yellow Box], WebObjects, and EOF) need to be realistically priced for their use to really take off. "Realisitcally" meaning less than US$1000 for the batch... From setzer at backfence.net Fri May 1 08:44:53 1998 From: setzer at backfence.net (Setzer Family) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true In-Reply-To: <199805012126.OAA08486@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: re: Ziya's proposal I'm not convinced Microsoft represents much of a threat to QuickTime and related technologies anyway, even on the Windows platform. Consider: * Serious computer-based multimedia developers choose QuickTime far more often than AVI (or ActiveMovie or whatever it is this week). * Nobody--and I mean nobody--other than Microsoft and a few people they paid off uses MS SurroundVideo--everyone uses QuickTimeVR for panoramic photo/movie work. * QuickTime file format was recently adopted for the next generation MPEG. * Jury's still out on Direct3D vs QD3D; they both might get their butts kicked by OpenGL anyway. MS has OpenGL in their OS but it's not a profit center for them; Apple ought to put in OpenGL themselves but if they don't Conix has a good implementation for MacOS and will probably develop one for Rhapsody. QuickTime seems to be one of the few areas where MS' attempts to clone Apple have not made much headway in the market. I see no incentive on Apple's part for the deal you propose. Steve Setzer >I proposed Apple selling YB to Microsoft in exchange for Microsoft not >competing with QuickTime for at least three years and bundling it with >Windows. > >Ziya From bradytrix at ameritech.net Fri May 1 10:51:49 1998 From: bradytrix at ameritech.net (BradyTrix) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true Message-ID: <19980501224042.BFPB5202@[199.179.162.175]> >Is Jobs is gonna blow it again? The RhapsodyOS Report >http://www.rhapsodyos.com/report is saying Apple is not going to license >Rhapsody on PPC for clone hardware vendors. This certainly doesn't bode >well for the long term future of the PowerPC. Apple never exploits leading >edge technology and as the leading user of PowerPC chips they won't drive >the technology to higher limits. Without PowerPC licensing and the third >party market for PowerPC processors and interface chips, PowerPC technology >will be eclipsed by Merced. Don't forget that Job's said that "the future of rhapsody could be in the merced chip". (or so rumors said...well...someone said.) From louispel at total.net Fri May 1 15:56:43 1998 From: louispel at total.net (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true Message-ID: <199805012256.SAA29735@bretweir.total.net> Ziya Oz at "ziyaoz@earthlink.net" said on 01/05/98 17:39 : >On 5/1/98 5:19 PM, Louis Pelletier wrote: > >>>The one Apple sells to Microsoft in exchange for relief on QuickTime. > >>Uhh?? What is this about? > >I proposed Apple selling YB to Microsoft in exchange for Microsoft not >competing with QuickTime for at least three years and bundling it with >Windows. > >Ziya I know realise my mistake. I guess I took it a bit "madly". To Ziya and others, I sincerely apologize. But I maintain my position about Ziya proposition... this is completly annoying, at least. But, as you think, this doesn't allow me to make a post like I did. So, to all, and especially to Ziya, I apologize, Louis Pelletier. From ziyaoz at earthlink.net Fri May 1 16:19:03 1998 From: ziyaoz at earthlink.net (Ziya Oz) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true Message-ID: <199805012306.QAA23155@denmark.it.earthlink.net> >I'm not convinced Microsoft represents much of a threat to QuickTime and >related technologies anyway, even on the Windows platform. With well over a billion dollars already invested in cable companies, VXtreme, Progressive Networks and WebTV and its obvious interest in HDTV, set-top boxes, etc., it's hard for me to think that Microsoft will let QuickTime, QT-derived MPEG-4 or any other non-Microsoft standard dominate that space. It may or may not be successful in the end, but it sure will try to flatten the competition. This is a gigantic growth area and Microsoft has to find a place to park its unstoppable revenue stream. To that end, we now have the Advanced Streaming Format (ASF) and the Advanced Authoring Format (AAF). ASF is a format for streaming media distribution. AAF enables the exchange of media among digital production tools and content creation applications. The two will become the new default multimedia file formats for Windows succeeding AVI by 1999. Now the supporters of AFS are rather interesting because they include Adobe, Avid, Digidesign, and Softimage. The first three used to be MacOS-only, QuickTime bulwarks. Throw in there the perennial Windows-fellow travelers Truevision and Matrox, and you've got most of digital video manufacturers today. (More on this at: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,20744,00.html) Apple needs breathing room for QuickTime to get itself established in the *new* digital video space of web, cable/set-top boxes, DVD and HDTV. Apple with QuickTime has a much better chance of succeeding in this space in a potentially huge market than it can with YB/Rhapsody in the business/enterprise market it has never been successful in. Therein lies the thought of YB for QT exchange. Ziya From rm at objectdata.com Fri May 1 16:43:18 1998 From: rm at objectdata.com (Robert MacKimmie) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: Missing amenities ... Message-ID: <9805012343.AA00292@objectdata.com> Like the regretful lack of the Online Webster's Dictionary presently missing from the Rhapsody desktop, today I was sorely missing the online complete works of Shakespeare. Always pleasant to take a moment to use your favorite computer desktop in looking up just 'who' newly discovered moons are named after: Astronomers name Uranus's new moons WASHINGTON (Reuters) May 1, 1998 - The astronomers who found two small moons orbiting Uranus last year have decided to name them Caliban and Sycorax, after characters mentioned in Shakespeare's play The Tempest. From pat at qhp.queensu.ca Fri May 1 17:09:28 1998 From: pat at qhp.queensu.ca (Pat Taylor) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true In-Reply-To: <199805012306.QAA23155@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: >>I'm not convinced Microsoft represents much of a threat to QuickTime and >>related technologies anyway, even on the Windows platform. >To that end, we now have the Advanced Streaming Format (ASF) and the >Advanced Authoring Format (AAF). ASF is a format for streaming media >distribution. AAF enables the exchange of media among digital production >tools and content creation applications. The two will become the new >default multimedia file formats for Windows succeeding AVI by 1999. We don't have ASF and AAF ... these are only preliminary proposals. Remember how ActiveMovie was going to be a QuickTime killer and now it's barely even mentioned? Microsoft has virtually no attention span in the video market ... as soon as they realize that they've overmarketed their technology (usually a week after it hits the market), they gather the usual suspects together and announce the next revolutionary technology. BTW, ASF was the rejected format when Quicktime 3 was selected as the foundation technology for MPEG-4. So the Motion Picture Experts Group didn't think it was going to be a worthwhile technology to base the international standard on!!! >Now the supporters of AFS are rather interesting because they include >Adobe, Avid, Digidesign, and Softimage. The first three used to be >MacOS-only, QuickTime bulwarks. Throw in there the perennial >Windows-fellow travelers Truevision and Matrox, and you've got most of >digital video manufacturers today. (More on this at: >http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,20744,00.html) The first three are actually only two since Digidesign is a wholly owned subsidiary of Avid (which is itself now partially owned by Intel). There is nothing particularly new about AAF since it is based on Avid's OMF video interchange format (the big difference is the linkage to COM). Adobe has traditionally supported both Quicktime and AVI so there's no surprise in their two-timing. Most Silicon Valley companies will send a couple of engineers to pretty much any working group, if only to know what the sponsoring company is up to. It doesn't mean that there is strong support there ... BTW, this is from OMFI's (the group that manages Avid's OMF) AAF press release: "This effort is complementary to Avid's continuing efforts to bridge OMFI technology to Apple's QuickTime, providing even more powerful collaboration among content creation professionals." >Apple needs breathing room for QuickTime to get itself established in the >*new* digital video space of web, cable/set-top boxes, DVD and HDTV. Until there are dramatic changes in infrastructure, only video on the web actually needs Quicktime ... the raw MPEG-2 format covers cable, settop, DVD and HDTV ... and Quicktime can encompass that. >Apple with QuickTime has a much better chance of succeeding in this space >in a potentially huge market than it can with YB/Rhapsody in the >business/enterprise market it has never been successful in. Therein lies >the thought of YB for QT exchange. Apple should do its best to integrate QuickTime into the Yellow Box ... I think that it is absolutely essential that Apple converts Quicktime into a full-fledged Objective C framework on the par with AppKit and Foundation. I'd like to see these technologies evolve together. Cheers, Patrick ______________________________________________________________ Patrick Taylor Kingston, Ontario, CANADA mailto:pat@qhp.queensu.ca http://www.stepwise.com "These are my principles, if you don't like them ... I've got others." --Groucho Marx From lmb at panix.com Fri May 1 22:10:46 1998 From: lmb at panix.com (Lance Ball) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: Missing amenities ... In-Reply-To: <9805012343.AA00292@objectdata.com>; from Robert MacKimmie on Fri, May 01, 1998 at 04:57:24PM -0700 References: <9805012343.AA00292@objectdata.com> Message-ID: <19980502011046.02642@panix.com> On 05/ 1, Robert MacKimmie rambled pointlessly: > > Like the regretful lack of the Online Webster's Dictionary presently missing > from the Rhapsody desktop, today I was sorely missing the online complete > works of Shakespeare. Always pleasant to take a moment to use your favorite > computer desktop in looking up just 'who' newly discovered moons are named > after: > > Astronomers name Uranus's new moons > WASHINGTON (Reuters) May 1, 1998 - The astronomers who found two small moons > orbiting Uranus last year have decided to name them Caliban and Sycorax, > after characters mentioned in Shakespeare's play The Tempest. Caliban: Prospero's half-human servant Sycorax: Caliban's mother(?) Caliban is an actual character. Sycorax is only mentioned. -- | Lance Ball | Imagination is greater than knowledge. -- A.E. | 97 E9 02 55 96 39 AE C9 FC AE D1 AF 46 6A AB 7D | H: lmb@panix.com, W: lance.ball@neterra.com, S: ball7717@cs.nyu.edu From scott at cacti.org Sat May 2 01:42:42 1998 From: scott at cacti.org (Scott Stevenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true Message-ID: <199805020833.BAA22865@proxy3.ba.best.com> > Give away the only API advantage that Apple has that gives them any >chance at a future so that Microsoft can massage it just like they have >Java >so that its is Microsoft centric.. Besides, Microsoft already stole the QuickTime API -- and paid for it. - Scott ------ Scott Stevenson scott@cacti.org http://www.cacti.org <-- Macintosh & Rhapsody Resources From scott at cacti.org Sat May 2 02:09:29 1998 From: scott at cacti.org (Scott Stevenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true Message-ID: <199805020900.CAA14522@proxy4.ba.best.com> Although we have fallen off-topic, there is a wrong to be righted here.... >Now the supporters of AFS are rather interesting because they include >Adobe, Avid, Digidesign, and Softimage. SoftImage is Microsoft. And Intel pretty much owns Avid, right? Looking at the site: It looks like Microsoft developed this thing in 1996 and it was approved by Adobe, Avid, Real Networks and Vivo in August of 1997. By checking the timeline, Steve had just made his first speech at Macworld (the MS one), so it's understandable why Adobe would see little future in Apple at that point. Things have changed dramatically in the last seven months, pariticuarly in the way of QuickTime. To further twist the plot, the insiders will notice that around this time, Microsoft had just been caught red-handed with "borrowing" QuickTime. Make your own conclusions. My instinct tells me that Steve Jobs would smart enough to see this one coming, and has already dealt with it in one form or another. Lastly, since QuickTime is already an established standard, all Apple has to do is support AAF and ASF in QuickTime 3.1. Just to throw gas on the fire, the AAF Q&A is just dripping with classic Microsoft: What is the Microsoft Multimedia Task Force? The Task Force is a group of companies organized by Microsoft to >>>drive improvements to the Microsoft Windows platforms<<< for content creation tools and authoring applications. Each member company is a recognized leader in its field of expertise. When further projects are defined the members of the Task Force will likely change to include additional expertise in other areas. [....] Will AAF only work on Windows? AAF will be supported on multiple platforms: Windows, Macintosh, Unix and other operating systems. (all done with this topic, I promise!) - Scott ------ Scott Stevenson scott@cacti.org http://www.cacti.org <-- Macintosh & Rhapsody Resources From scott at cacti.org Sat May 2 02:15:00 1998 From: scott at cacti.org (Scott Stevenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: YB Perception on NT/95 Message-ID: <199805020905.CAA07538@proxy3.ba.best.com> >Personaly, I couldn't care one way or another about MDI vs SDI. As long as >I can restore or minimize all the windows in my App at the same time, I'm >just fine with it. Here's my thought on this -- I'd like to be able to see more than one app at once. :) ....although that dark grey empty area in MDI is kind of relaxing. - Scott ------ Scott Stevenson scott@cacti.org http://www.cacti.org <-- Macintosh & Rhapsody Resources From scott at cacti.org Sat May 2 02:18:44 1998 From: scott at cacti.org (Scott Stevenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: Quote from Microsoft Message-ID: <199805020909.CAA22887@proxy4.ba.best.com> No joke! "The future of Windows is now, using devices and technology you already know. The future of Windows is more like a walk down a well-known street than a giant leap forward for humankind." ------ Scott Stevenson scott@cacti.org http://www.cacti.org <-- Macintosh & Rhapsody Resources From ziyaoz at earthlink.net Sat May 2 02:24:20 1998 From: ziyaoz at earthlink.net (Ziya Oz) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true Message-ID: <199805020911.CAA11832@denmark.it.earthlink.net> On 5/2/98 5:09 AM, Scott Stevenson wrote: >It looks like Microsoft developed this thing in 1996... Wrong. Do yourself a favor and check it out: More streaming from Microsoft By Erich LueningStaff Writer, CNET NEWS.COM April 3, 1998, 8:25 a.m. PT at http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,20744,00.html Ziya From scott at cacti.org Sat May 2 11:26:16 1998 From: scott at cacti.org (Scott Stevenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true Message-ID: <199805021817.LAA01886@proxy3.ba.best.com> >>It looks like Microsoft developed this thing in 1996... > >Wrong. > >Do yourself a favor and check it out: "First Draft of ASF Specification. --------------------------------- In 1996, Microsoft developed a preliminary version of ASF and implemented it within its NetShow(tm) streaming server and client products." ------ Scott Stevenson scott@cacti.org http://www.cacti.org <-- Macintosh & Rhapsody Resources From jshomphe at scott.skidmore.edu Sat May 2 12:46:56 1998 From: jshomphe at scott.skidmore.edu (Joseph Shomphe) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: OpenStep 4.2 For Black Hardware Message-ID: <199805021946.PAA15859@scott> Can registered developers still download OS 4.2 for NeXT machines from Apple...I know it was already seeded. If so..from where? From ismail at iglou.com Sat May 2 16:12:15 1998 From: ismail at iglou.com (Ismail Tabtabai) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: Rhp., MacOS, and MkLinux on Mach! Message-ID: Halaw, If it's true that all the PPC OS's are going to run on Mach kernel (namely Rhpsody, MacOSX.XX and MkLinux); would the old arguement discussed on the list, whether Rhapsody will tun MacOS as an emulation or not, be trivial anymore? Since all the OS processes will be sent to one kernel. I'm thinking it is not since the kernel is the actual entity that communicates with the Hardware! Am I thinking right? Also, would it also be possible to run MkLinux along with MacOS? Meaning, if the filesystem of MkLinux and MacOS are made to be compatible with that of Rhapsody, would you only need to double click on the application to use it; whether it is made for Rhapsody, MacOS, or MkLinux since all know which library built them and are supposedly linked to it. Am I right? Am I dreaming of a very futuristic OS? I think if this visionary look, supposedly thought by apple, is true, then all OS's would like to port their code to run on a stadrad Mach kernel. This is almost an evolutionary step in standardizing the OS market, from having each OS with very specific requirements, to all which require only a kernel that is compatible with all Hardware. If this is only a dream of my imagination, since the flu has infected me too and I usually go into the metaphysical world during which time;-), is this idea possible with todays available technology? Can it be accomplished? Regards Ismail. From abridge at wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us Sat May 2 18:14:35 1998 From: abridge at wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (Adam Bridge) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: Rhp., MacOS, and MkLinux on Mach! Message-ID: <199805030114.SAA08802@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us> >Halaw, > If it's true that all the PPC OS's are going to run on Mach kernel (namely >Rhpsody, MacOSX.XX and MkLinux); would the old arguement discussed on the >list, whether Rhapsody will tun MacOS as an emulation or not, be trivial >anymore? Since all the OS processes will be sent to one kernel. I'm thinking >it is not since the kernel is the actual entity that communicates with the >Hardware! Am I thinking right? Right now the Blue Box sits on top the the Rhapsody kernel -- the OS eventually be handed hardware requests by the MacOS. So, imagine stripping away EVERTHING from Rhapsody that isn't needed by the Blue Box. Now you have the MacOS resting on purely the Mach kernel plus whatever support software is needed to keep networking etc going efficiently. I would assume that the next step involves stripping away the innards of the MacOS that aren't needed because they are supplied by the Mach kernel in order to make more efficient use of CPU resources. Now float the Yellow Box software onto the MacOS. Add a few new bits and pieces of software (doesn't that sound sooooooooooo easy?) to make more efficient use of the underlying Mach kernel. Gradually deprecate exiting MacOS managers. End result: sometime after the millenium the MacOS has transformed itself into something different. Of course it's still the MacOS. But simpler implimentations can have smaller kernels, or built-to-purpose kernels, even (gulp) real-time kernels. Imagine the possibilities..... ------------------------------------------- Adam Bridge "...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason." Thomas Paine "Common Sense" Internet: abridge@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us Voice: (916) 756-4695 From paul at eisusa.com Sat May 2 20:01:58 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true In-Reply-To: <199805020900.CAA14522@proxy4.ba.best.com> Message-ID: Scott, >Make your own conclusions. My instinct tells me that Steve Jobs would >smart enough to see this one coming, and has already dealt with it in one >form or another. Go to your libray and check out a copy of "Steve Jobs, the NeXT Big Thing". It's sobering to read. I don't have a lot of faith in Jobs' "instinct's". I think a lot of what we are seeing now is a result of some tough decisions by Amelio, not a turnaround led by Jobs. Paul From paul at eisusa.com Sat May 2 20:08:44 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: Rhp., MacOS, and MkLinux on Mach! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:14 PM -0700 5/2/98, Ismail Tabtabai wrote: >Halaw, > If it's true that all the PPC OS's are going to run on Mach kernel (namely >Rhpsody, MacOSX.XX and MkLinux); would the old arguement discussed on the >list, whether Rhapsody will tun MacOS as an emulation or not, be trivial >anymore? Since all the OS processes will be sent to one kernel. I'm thinking >it is not since the kernel is the actual entity that communicates with the >Hardware! Am I thinking right? That means Apple would have to intentionally wound MacOS so it would not run on generic PPC hardware (assuming that they might license Rhapsody on PPC hardware). Don't worry, with Job's closed system, proprietary mindset, they will screw it up somehow. Paul From sanguish at digifix.com Sat May 2 20:49:57 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805030350.XAA14126@digifix.com> Paul Nicholson wrote: > Scott, > > >Make your own conclusions. My instinct tells me that Steve Jobs would > >smart enough to see this one coming, and has already dealt with it in one > >form or another. > > Go to your libray and check out a copy of "Steve Jobs, the NeXT Big Thing". > It's sobering to read. I don't have a lot of faith in Jobs' "instinct's". I > think a lot of what we are seeing now is a result of some tough decisions > by Amelio, not a turnaround led by Jobs. > Its also a book that is chock full of factual errors. This has been discusssed repeatedly over the years in comp.sys.next.advocacy.. From gcoffey at primenet.com Sat May 2 21:09:47 1998 From: gcoffey at primenet.com (Geoff Coffey) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:15 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true Message-ID: <199805030407.VAA07328@smtp03.primenet.com> >Go to your libray and check out a copy of "Steve Jobs, the NeXT Big Thing". >It's sobering to read. I don't have a lot of faith in Jobs' "instinct's". I >think a lot of what we are seeing now is a result of some tough decisions >by Amelio, not a turnaround led by Jobs. You place too much faith in one man's misled attempt at sensationalism. Geoff From setzer at backfence.net Sat May 2 14:35:53 1998 From: setzer at backfence.net (Setzer Family) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Rhp., MacOS, and MkLinux on Mach! In-Reply-To: <199805030114.SAA08802@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us> Message-ID: To Adam and Ismail: Why? Adam, if you can run Mac apps in the BlueBox, why strip out the rest of Rhapsody (YB + BSD), "add a few bits" and then add a reimplemented YB back in? I understand the concern that RDR1 is rough around the edges, and the Blue Box is one of the rougher pieces. I believe the BB experience will get better, and that Apple is working on it right now. Ismail, why waste the cycles on an MkLinux compatibility layer? MkLinux is not well regarded in the Linux community. The most useful software is command-line based (perl, apache) and either already ported or easy to port to a BSD system like Rhapsody, without worrying about MkLinux. As for GUI software--even major commercial products like FrameMaker, IslandDraw, and Helios either don't support Linux at all or only support Linux/x86. For those who really need it, X-Windows software is available for Rhapsody from third parties. I see no software so necessary to the future that Rhapsody must be binary-compatible with MkLinux; source-compatible is good enough. I don't mean to be harsh, but I really don't agree with either vision. Rhapsody as I think it will happen--RDR1 but much cleaner and faster and with a good Blue Box--fits the needs you both seem to be aiming at. Steve Setzer From don at misckit.com Sat May 2 23:09:57 1998 From: don at misckit.com (Donald A. Yacktman) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Quote from Microsoft In-Reply-To: <199805020909.CAA22887@proxy4.ba.best.com> References: <199805020909.CAA22887@proxy4.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <9805030607.AA07013@misckit.com> On Sat, 2 May 1998, Scott Stevenson wrote: > No joke! > > > "The future of Windows is now, using devices and technology you already > know. The future of Windows is more like a walk down a well-known street > than a giant leap forward for humankind." :-) Let me take a stab at translation from marketing-ese to English: "Windows has become *so* bloated that our engineers have given up trying to fix it, let alone adding anything innovative to it. But, since we have what we believe to be an unbreakable stranglehold on the marketplace and won't give up our monopoly any time soon, you might as well get comfortable with what you've got. Settle in. You're going to be here--with us--for a _looooong_ time." -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page From scott at cacti.org Sun May 3 00:08:46 1998 From: scott at cacti.org (Scott Stevenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true Message-ID: <199805030659.XAA17542@proxy4.ba.best.com> >Go to your libray and check out a copy of "Steve Jobs, the NeXT Big Thing". >It's sobering to read. I don't have a lot of faith in Jobs' "instinct's". I >think a lot of what we are seeing now is a result of some tough decisions >by Amelio, not a turnaround led by Jobs. I have to disagree. It seems to me G3s, serious cross-platform efforts, the online store, the well-recognized marketing campaign, doubled stock price, MacOS 8's spectacularly successful release and two quarters of profit -- didn't all happen on their own. Give the man and his team some credit. - Scott ------ Scott Stevenson scott@cacti.org http://www.cacti.org <-- Macintosh & Rhapsody Resources From ismail at iglou.com Sun May 3 00:23:38 1998 From: ismail at iglou.com (Ismail Tabtabai) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Rhp., MacOS, and MkLinux on Mach! Message-ID: Hello, In fact, let's not go that far. I am talking about the very low level of the OS that communicates with the kernel. If both MacOS and Rhapsody could communicate with the same Mach kernel, then would that trivial emulation argument still be the same? This is all. The MkLinux was only mentioned to expand on the idea of an open standard. ---------- |From: Setzer Family |To: Multiple recipients of list |Subject: Re: Rhp., MacOS, and MkLinux on Mach! |Date: Sun, May 3, 1998, 12:20 AM | |To Adam and Ismail: | |Why? | |Adam, if you can run Mac apps in the BlueBox, why strip out the rest of |Rhapsody (YB + BSD), "add a few bits" and then add a reimplemented YB back |in? I understand the concern that RDR1 is rough around the edges, and the |Blue Box is one of the rougher pieces. I believe the BB experience will get |better, and that Apple is working on it right now. | |Ismail, why waste the cycles on an MkLinux compatibility layer? MkLinux is |not well regarded in the Linux community. The most useful software is |command-line based (perl, apache) and either already ported or easy to port |to a BSD system like Rhapsody, without worrying about MkLinux. As for GUI |software--even major commercial products like FrameMaker, IslandDraw, and |Helios either don't support Linux at all or only support Linux/x86. For |those who really need it, X-Windows software is available for Rhapsody from |third parties. I see no software so necessary to the future that Rhapsody |must be binary-compatible with MkLinux; source-compatible is good enough. | |I don't mean to be harsh, but I really don't agree with either vision. |Rhapsody as I think it will happen--RDR1 but much cleaner and faster and |with a good Blue Box--fits the needs you both seem to be aiming at. | | |Steve Setzer | | | | From gfair at uniserve.com Sat May 2 16:34:29 1998 From: gfair at uniserve.com (Graham Fair) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Rhapsody Message-ID: With such discussion (especially in the Rhapsody Discussion List from Lyris), the facts can be lost. There are a few questions I have about Rhapsody though: 1. Does Apple realise the importance of making Yellow Box available for all major commercial flavours of Unix? More specifically, will Apple make Yellow Box available for Solaris, Irix, AIX, HP-UX, DEC Unix, Linux in addition to WinNT, 95/98 and MacOS? 2. Does Apple realise the importance of making Rhapsody available on Merced in addition to PowerPC and x86? Will Apple do this? 3. Can the Rhapsody development environment (OpenStep?) produce applications more flexible (wider range of uses) than Java applications? 4. If Yellow Box is available for the big commercial OSes, offers applications at native speed and the YB applications are produced by the OpenStep IDE (which can cut development time by up to 5/6 of a normal program development cycle), does Rhapsody stand a chance of becoming the pinnacle of what Java is supposed to be/offer? 5. Since OpenStep was introduced, have any other IDE's (development environments) come close to matching it in terms of ease of use leading to vastly decreased development cycles? 6. Would it be possible that Apple might have lost sight of the need for Rhapsody to be totally (or as close to) crash proof? 7. What exactly is the "Enterprise Object something-or-other" that NeXT has also designed? Is it an application framework like Yellow Box, or is it a development environment, or programming libraries (if the lack of knowledge is totally apparent please avoid condemning it)? Could someone briefly explain it please? 8. Does anyone else share my optimism in believing that Apple could make the single greatest comeback in the personal computer industry if Rhapsody does most of what it is said to do? Thank you to all who take the time to answer. Graham Fair Apple patriot From yves at vlaanderen.net Sun May 3 02:34:21 1998 From: yves at vlaanderen.net (Yves De Muyter) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Rhp., MacOS, and MkLinux on Mach! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Ismail, why waste the cycles on an MkLinux compatibility layer? MkLinux is >not well regarded in the Linux community. The most useful software is The bad thing about mklinux is not the mach kernel, but the linux kernel sitting on top of the mach kernel. It causes a lot of overhead because all services are delivered by the linux kernel. You get a situation where the fast stuff in the mach kernel isn't used (directly) >command-line based (perl, apache) and either already ported or easy to port >to a BSD system like Rhapsody, without worrying about MkLinux. As for GUI >software--even major commercial products like FrameMaker, IslandDraw, and >Helios either don't support Linux at all or only support Linux/x86. For >those who really need it, X-Windows software is available for Rhapsody from >third parties. I see no software so necessary to the future that Rhapsody >must be binary-compatible with MkLinux; source-compatible is good enough. That's the point. Rhapsody is unix (bsd combliant even) and gets all advantages of it. Rhapsody has all the elements to make it more succesfull than linux at the moment so there are more chances that software gets ported to Rhapsody than to Linux... Linux should become Rhapsody-binary compatible ;-) >I don't mean to be harsh, but I really don't agree with either vision. >Rhapsody as I think it will happen--RDR1 but much cleaner and faster and >with a good Blue Box--fits the needs you both seem to be aiming at. Yes, get the MacOS. What's the most frustrating about it? You can't double click a new app without thinking "will it crash or not?" and sometimes the MacOS takes over control while you're thinking "what the hell is it doing". Rhapsody will bring stuff that will deal with these things. The NExT interface was (is) great and when you bring the best of both together, you could get a kick-ass interface. When the apple (NeXT) folks do their job well they create some interface-independent system (the object oriented nature of OpenStep is perfect for this) and making everyone happy (it would be highly configurable). Rhapsody DR1 + BBox are developer releases, so they are a collection of stuff that sort of works, but not ready yet. The fact that BlueBox was in a workable state that fast is good. But i think S. Jobs wants an OS targetted at the Server market, just like NT. That doesn't mean it's bad as an end-user OS but it will be prised just like NT (wich isn't cheap). It will be an excuse to prise it high. Look at OpenNT (unix on top of NT kernel) it costs a lot of money, and look at Rhapsody, they deliver sort-of the same services... (unix, GUI, RAD...) The low cost version will probably be some bluebox, with Yellow in it on top of Mach... Yves From yves at vlaanderen.net Sun May 3 03:01:43 1998 From: yves at vlaanderen.net (Yves De Muyter) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Rhapsody In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >With such discussion (especially in the Rhapsody Discussion List from >Lyris), the facts can be lost. There are a few questions I have about >Rhapsody though: > >1. Does Apple realise the importance of making Yellow Box available for all >major commercial flavours of Unix? More specifically, will Apple make >Yellow Box available for Solaris, Irix, AIX, HP-UX, DEC Unix, Linux in >addition to WinNT, 95/98 and MacOS? GNUStep is going in a good direction. It can be good and bad for apple (getting more programmers to OpenStep, but getting more Yellow programmers to alternative OS'ses...) >2. Does Apple realise the importance of making Rhapsody available on Merced >in addition to PowerPC and x86? Will Apple do this? Probably yes. >3. Can the Rhapsody development environment (OpenStep?) produce >applications more flexible (wider range of uses) than Java applications? Yup, and faster! And you can use java at the core of your Yellow programming, creating the best of 2 worlds (binary compatibility on different platforms) >4. If Yellow Box is available for the big commercial OSes, offers >applications at native speed and the YB applications are produced by the >OpenStep IDE (which can cut development time by up to 5/6 of a normal >program development cycle), does Rhapsody stand a chance of becoming the >pinnacle of what Java is supposed to be/offer? When the succes of Java dies, Rhapsody will have got the best of it. When it's a success, that doesn't mean Rhapsody dies :-) --> win-win combination >5. Since OpenStep was introduced, have any other IDE's (development >environments) come close to matching it in terms of ease of use leading to >vastly decreased development cycles? Competition continues. Delphi is as close and good, M$ is trying the same with Visual C-Basic but these are only source-code generating utils... >6. Would it be possible that Apple might have lost sight of the need for >Rhapsody to be totally (or as close to) crash proof? No. Apple Reps. say it is targetted at the server market, meaning it should be crash proof. Wasn't NT targetted to servers? Ever since Apple is saying blah-blah about servers, the market stopped saying Apple isn't doing anything targetted at servers... >7. What exactly is the "Enterprise Object something-or-other" that NeXT has >also designed? Is it an application framework like Yellow Box, or is it a >development environment, or programming libraries (if the lack of knowledge >is totally apparent please avoid condemning it)? Could someone briefly >explain it please? Openstep libraries + IB (interface builder) + all stuff for RAD... >8. Does anyone else share my optimism in believing that Apple could make >the single greatest comeback in the personal computer industry if Rhapsody >does most of what it is said to do? OpenStep was the single most advanced OS in it's time. Nobody cared so there is more needed than being good. I think Apple finally started to do a good job here. Look at the blah-blah around the G3. Much of the anti-Mac people started to say 'yes, the PowerPC is kick-ass, pity it doesn't run NT...'. Now Apple need these people to say 'Rhapsody is kick-ass'. The only reason why I said in the past why MacOS sux was that i could't install it on my PC and i won't invest $2000 to find it out... Yves ================================================================================ = yves@sesuadra.org yves@vlaanderen.net From Paul_Lynch at seer.demon.co.uk Sun May 3 02:19:41 1998 From: Paul_Lynch at seer.demon.co.uk (Paul Lynch) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true In-Reply-To: <199805030350.XAA14126@digifix.com> References: <199805030350.XAA14126@digifix.com> Message-ID: <9805030920.AA29841@seer.demon.co.uk> Scott Anguish wrote: > > Go to your libray and check out a copy of "Steve Jobs, the NeXT Big > > Thing". It's sobering to read. I don't have a lot of faith in Jobs' > > "instinct's". I think a lot of what we are seeing now is a result of some > > tough decisions by Amelio, not a turnaround led by Jobs. > > > > Its also a book that is chock full of factual errors. This has been > discusssed repeatedly over the years in comp.sys.next.advocacy.. Check out some of Stross's other books. He has also written possibly the most sycophantic hagiography of Bill Gates ever. Paul --- Paul Lynch (NeXTmail) http://www.plsys.co.uk/~paul From Paul_Lynch at seer.demon.co.uk Sun May 3 02:28:15 1998 From: Paul_Lynch at seer.demon.co.uk (Paul Lynch) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Rhapsody In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9805030928.AA29845@seer.demon.co.uk> gfair@uniserve.com (Graham Fair) wrote: > 1. Does Apple realise the importance of making Yellow Box available for all > major commercial flavours of Unix? More specifically, will Apple make > Yellow Box available for Solaris, Irix, AIX, HP-UX, DEC Unix, Linux in > addition to WinNT, 95/98 and MacOS? It isn't important; check out the overall marketshare of each Unix version. If you look at it in commercial terms, even Linux falls to nothing. Each Unix version should be supported on its own terms: by the effort of its advocates, or according to strategic advantage (if any). > 2. Does Apple realise the importance of making Rhapsody available on Merced > in addition to PowerPC and x86? Will Apple do this? Jobs has dropped a few comments that imply that he is well aware of the advantages of picking up on Merced. > 3. Can the Rhapsody development environment (OpenStep?) produce > applications more flexible (wider range of uses) than Java applications? Yes; Java is highly overrated. But the Java language has also been incorporated into OpenStep, so you have best of both worlds. > 7. What exactly is the "Enterprise Object something-or-other" that NeXT has > also designed? Is it an application framework like Yellow Box, or is it a > development environment, or programming libraries (if the lack of knowledge > is totally apparent please avoid condemning it)? Could someone briefly > explain it please? Enterprise Object Foundation. It's a set of frameworks that work with the rest of OpenStep (Foundation is required) to implement a persistent object layer over a relational database. Some development tools come with it, and it can be used with both OpenStep/Rhapsody and WebObjects. One way of describing EOF is to say that it makes an SQL database look like an OO database. The current version (2.2) isn't perfect, but it makes serious database development possible; other products let you knock up a simple database interface (query or report) more rapidly, but EOF lets you create a full-scale, enhanceable application more easily than anything else. The rest of your questions are just asking for opinions; there are lots available to share. Paul --- Paul Lynch (NeXTmail) http://www.plsys.co.uk/~paul From ianb at mail.well.com Sun May 3 06:02:45 1998 From: ianb at mail.well.com (Ian Betteridge) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true Message-ID: <199805031302.GAA29166@smtp.well.com> On Sun May 3 00:01:53 1998, Scott Stevenson insisted that... >Give the man and his team some credit. Most of those moves were initiated before Jobs became CEO. Give the credit to Gil Amelio. From viktor.mayer-schoenberger at univie.ac.at Sun May 3 10:04:12 1998 From: viktor.mayer-schoenberger at univie.ac.at (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Viktor_Mayer-Sch=F6nberger?=) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Gil Amelio et al. Message-ID: <199805031504.RAA13684@mailbox.univie.ac.at> Ian Betteridge wrote > Most of those moves were initiated before Jobs became CEO. Give > the credit to Gil Amelio. How so? I think it would help the discussion if you could support your assumptions with facts. Just for starters: - Did Gil Amelio decide to streamline the product line based on the G3/750? - Did Gil Amelio decide to streamline the Powerbook line based on the G3/750? - Did Gil Amelio decide to switch advertisement companies, go for an emotional "Think Different" and then a product-based "Think faster" campaign? - Did Gil Amelio decide to harmonize operating systems and to phase out NOS? - Did Gil Amelio decide to end cloning? While many of us think that Amelio was the right man for the right time, to my knowledge no facts have surfaced that conclusvely demonstrate that he was the mastermind behind Apple's turn-around. But then, you might have informations we do not have and we would all benefit from your sharing. Regards, Viktor Dr.Viktor Mayer-Schoenberger The box said 'Requires Windows 95 or better', so I bought a Macintosh For Wintel owners: Don't despair, Rhapsody is coming soon.... From yves at vlaanderen.net Sun May 3 09:36:09 1998 From: yves at vlaanderen.net (Yves De Muyter) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Gil Amelio et al. In-Reply-To: <199805031504.RAA13684@mailbox.univie.ac.at> Message-ID: >Ian Betteridge wrote > >> Most of those moves were initiated before Jobs became CEO. Give >> the credit to Gil Amelio. > >How so? I think it would help the discussion if you could >support your assumptions with facts. > >Just for starters: >- Did Gil Amelio decide to streamline the product line based on the >G3/750? He would have. It's completely normal for Apple to switch to G3, just like Compaq switches to PII... >- Did Gil Amelio decide to streamline the Powerbook line based on the >G3/750? Probably he would have. Nobody knows if Gil Amelio has started this or not. It are the Apple engineers that create this hardware, not Gil nor Jobs... >- Did Gil Amelio decide to switch advertisement companies, go for an >emotional "Think Different" and then a product-based "Think faster" >campaign? Nope. Hype (c) by S. Jobs. And Apple needs a lot of hype to succeed... >- Did Gil Amelio decide to harmonize operating systems and to phase >out NOS? Nope, the worst thing S. Jobs could do. He had to drop R&D in it, and come with a MacOS based device and simply replace it when it's there. Not killing it and shitting on all Newton users. Those Newton-only users won't ever buy anyting from Apple again... >- Did Gil Amelio decide to end cloning? Nope. This topic is discussable wether cloning is a good thing. >While many of us think that Amelio was the right man for the right >time, to my knowledge no facts have surfaced that conclusvely >demonstrate that he was the mastermind behind Apple's turn-around. Amelio wasn't that bad, but i personally think Apple needed someone different than Amelio to compete against M$. Never forget Amelio introduced his own death by bringing in S. Jobs and his crue. That 'interim' thing in S. Jobs title is nothing more than a way to play with board members. This way, S. Jobs can do everything (like killing NewtonOS), no matter what the board says... Yves ================================================================================ = yves@sesuadra.org yves@vlaanderen.net From paul at eisusa.com Sun May 3 09:20:49 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true In-Reply-To: <199805030659.XAA17542@proxy4.ba.best.com> Message-ID: Scott, >It seems to me G3s, serious cross-platform efforts, the online store, the >well-recognized marketing campaign, doubled stock price, MacOS 8's >spectacularly successful release and two quarters of profit -- didn't all >happen on their own. The success of the G3 is due to Motorola's CPU tweaks and the use of synchronous DRAM. The design of the G3 motherboard glue chips was started well before Steve became CEO. It was Amelio that promised new OS updates every 6 months. Amelio was already negotiating with Microsoft, in fact he was holding out for delivery of Office under Rhapsody when Jobs sold out for less. Oh, and in case you have not noticed, MacOS 8 really isn't much different than 7.x. The major design faults still remain. >Give the man and his team some credit. Running a big corporation is like piloting a super tanker. It takes time to respond to the captains orders. Time will tell what direction Jobs steers. There was an interview with Gil in MacHome magazine at http://www.machome.com/Features/amelio.html. Read it, it's interesting. Paul Paul Nicholson Electronic Imaging Systems, Inc. TEL 805 532 1068 5148 Commerce Avenue, Unit F FAX 805 532 1065 Moorpark, CA 93021 U.S.A. paul@eisusa.com http://www.eisusa.com From paul at eisusa.com Sun May 3 09:21:01 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Gil Amelio et al. In-Reply-To: <199805031504.RAA13684@mailbox.univie.ac.at> Message-ID: At 8:06 AM -0700 5/3/98, Viktor Mayer-Sch?nberger wrote: >Just for starters: >- Did Gil Amelio decide to streamline the product line based on the >G3/750? Motorola designed the G3 chip. Apple engineers started the glue logic design well before Jobs was CEO. It doesn't take a genius to discontinue the higher cost, lower performance older design when the new one, started before is reign, is cheaper to build and delivers higher performance. Duh, this was a hard decision. >- Did Gil Amelio decide to streamline the Powerbook line based on the >G3/750? Se the answer above. >- Did Gil Amelio decide to switch advertisement companies, go for an >emotional "Think Different" and then a product-based "Think faster" >campaign? This decision was made after he left, and it too was a no-brainer based on the ineffectiveness of Apple's touchy-feely ads. >- Did Gil Amelio decide to harmonize operating systems and to phase >out NOS? The decision to buy NeXT was made by Gil and his team. >- Did Gil Amelio decide to end cloning? No, that lousy decison was apparently made by Jobs. If Apple was losing money on clones they should have raised the license price. They lost a lot of credibililty with this decision. >While many of us think that Amelio was the right man for the right >time, to my knowledge no facts have surfaced that conclusvely >demonstrate that he was the mastermind behind Apple's turn-around. Who says there's a turnaround. The decline has been halted but there's not yet a real turnaround. Apple has slashed costs and product lines. The real result of these decisons will be apparent in the future. >But then, you might have informations we do not have and we would all >benefit from your sharing. There was an interview with Gil in MacHome magazine at http://www.machome.com/Features/amelio.html. Read it, it's interesting. Paul From viktor.mayer-schoenberger at univie.ac.at Sun May 3 11:28:45 1998 From: viktor.mayer-schoenberger at univie.ac.at (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Viktor_Mayer-Sch=F6nberger?=) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Gil Amelio et al. In-Reply-To: References: <199805031504.RAA13684@mailbox.univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <199805031628.SAA11856@mailbox.univie.ac.at> > At 8:06 AM -0700 5/3/98, Viktor Mayer-Sch?nberger wrote: > > >Just for starters: > >- Did Gil Amelio decide to streamline the product line based on the > >G3/750? > > Motorola designed the G3 chip. Apple engineers started the glue logic > design well before Jobs was CEO. It doesn't take a genius to discontinue > the higher cost, lower performance older design when the new one, started > before is reign, is cheaper to build and delivers higher performance. Duh, > this was a hard decision. > > >- Did Gil Amelio decide to streamline the Powerbook line based on the > >G3/750? > > Se the answer above. > > >- Did Gil Amelio decide to switch advertisement companies, go for an > >emotional "Think Different" and then a product-based "Think faster" > >campaign? > > This decision was made after he left, and it too was a no-brainer based on > the ineffectiveness of Apple's touchy-feely ads. > > >- Did Gil Amelio decide to harmonize operating systems and to phase > >out NOS? > > The decision to buy NeXT was made by Gil and his team. What has the one to do with the other? > > >- Did Gil Amelio decide to end cloning? > > No, that lousy decison was apparently made by Jobs. If Apple was losing > money on clones they should have raised the license price. They lost a lot > of credibililty with this decision. > So we agree that the main decisions of the last nine months or so - whether "brainers" or "no-brainers" were indeed made by Jobs and his management team? ;-) Viktor From jebask at sound.net Sun May 3 09:48:11 1998 From: jebask at sound.net (Jim Baskins) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: No Rhapsody PPC licensing - say it ain't true Message-ID: <199805031647.JAA05670@ignem.omnigroup.com> On 5/3/98 11:26 AM Paul Nicholson paul@eisusa.com wrote: >Scott, > >>It seems to me G3s, serious cross-platform efforts, the online store, the >>well-recognized marketing campaign, doubled stock price, MacOS 8's >>spectacularly successful release and two quarters of profit -- didn't all >>happen on their own. > >The success of the G3 is due to Motorola's CPU tweaks and the use of >synchronous DRAM. The design of the G3 motherboard glue chips was started >well before Steve became CEO. It was Amelio that promised new OS updates >every 6 months. Amelio was already negotiating with Microsoft, in fact he >was holding out for delivery of Office under Rhapsody when Jobs sold out >for less. Oh, and in case you have not noticed, MacOS 8 really isn't much >different than 7.x. The major design faults still remain. > >>Give the man and his team some credit. > >Running a big corporation is like piloting a super tanker. It takes time to >respond to the captains orders. Time will tell what direction Jobs steers. > >There was an interview with Gil in MacHome magazine at >http://www.machome.com/Features/amelio.html. Read it, it's interesting. > >Paul > >Paul Nicholson Electronic Imaging Systems, Inc. >TEL 805 532 1068 5148 Commerce Avenue, Unit F >FAX 805 532 1065 Moorpark, CA 93021 U.S.A. >paul@eisusa.com http://www.eisusa.com > > > It seems to me that all this talk about whether Amelio would have done what Jobs has done is, at best, moot. Engineers are engineers and suits are suits. Amelio and Hancock did a good job getting the engineers at Apple focused on better and more competitive products. However, the two of them put together had all the charisma of milk toast. Jobs, love him or hate him, oozes more charisma (bullshit or otherwise) in a week than Amelio would have in 20 years. That makes him the right guy for right now. In a few years he'll have worn thin and someone else will be better suited. Seems to work that way..... Brother Jim From paul at eisusa.com Sun May 3 09:50:42 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Gil Amelio et al. In-Reply-To: <199805031628.SAA11856@mailbox.univie.ac.at> Message-ID: At 9:30 AM -0700 5/3/98, Viktor Mayer-Sch?nberger wrote: >> >- Did Gil Amelio decide to harmonize operating systems and to phase >> >out NOS? >> >> The decision to buy NeXT was made by Gil and his team. > >What has the one to do with the other? How could you harmonize operating systems if you only had MacOS to harmonize. Buying NeXT was the hard decision, i.e. deciding which road to take. Consolidating technology is just keeping the car on the road. >So we agree that the main decisions of the last nine months or so - >whether "brainers" or "no-brainers" were indeed made by Jobs and his >management team? ;-) We can agree to that ;<) Paul From kc Sun May 3 11:23:36 1998 From: kc (Ken Case) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: [Moderator] Re: Gil Amelio et al. Message-ID: <199805031821.LAA06618@ignem.omnigroup.com> Take this topic to some other forum (say, comp.sys.mac.advocacy). We're not here to talk about Gil or Steve, we're here to talk about Rhapsody. Ken From kelleysoft at pressenter.com Sun May 3 12:13:21 1998 From: kelleysoft at pressenter.com (kelleysoft@pressenter.com) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Gil Amelio et al. In-Reply-To: <199805031504.RAA13684@mailbox.univie.ac.at> Message-ID: >- Did Gil Amelio decide to [...] Gil Amelio decided to buy NeXT (and a surprising move at that, when everyone was expecting Apple to get Be). Without that critically key decision, there would have been no Rhapsody, no YellowBox, no Steve, no future, and none of us would be here now to discuss this. As for who truely "saved" Apple is purely academic. All I know is Apple is finally showing signs of life, with a real potential for a very bright future. FAR better than the Apple of 2-3 years ago... Greg Betzel Kelley Software From louispel at total.net Sun May 3 12:59:49 1998 From: louispel at total.net (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Gil Amelio et al. (end of thread) Message-ID: <199805031959.PAA14808@bretweir.total.net> Greg Betzel at "kelleysoft@pressenter.com" said on 03/05/98 15:09 : >>- Did Gil Amelio decide to [...] > >Gil Amelio decided to buy NeXT (and a surprising move at that, when >everyone was expecting Apple to get Be). > >Without that critically key decision, there would have been no Rhapsody, no >YellowBox, no Steve, no future, and none of us would be here now to discuss >this. > >As for who truely "saved" Apple is purely academic. All I know is Apple is >finally showing signs of life, with a real potential for a very bright >future. FAR better than the Apple of 2-3 years ago... > >Greg Betzel >Kelley Software > This makes me think about something funny... Jobs got Scully (is it the right name?) from Pepsi. Scully fired Jobs. Amelio got Jobs (when he bought NeXT). Jobs fired Amelio (ok, not Jobs, the board). Funny. Don't you think? L. Pelletier. From scott at cacti.org Sun May 3 14:12:16 1998 From: scott at cacti.org (Scott Stevenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Big Stuff Wednesday? Message-ID: <199805032103.OAA09005@proxy4.ba.best.com> [ haven't seen this posted yet... ] The last one of these spawned the G3, the online store and BTO. What does Mr. Jobs have cooked up for Wednesday? Hmmmm... :) -------- An Apple media invitation from its PR agency says that "it is time once again to announce the fruits of their [Apple's] labor" at the Flint Center, 21250 Stevens Creek Blvd., Cupertino on Wednesday, May 6, 1998 at 10:00 am. http://www.seminars.apple.com/series/may6/index.html ------ Scott Stevenson scott@cacti.org http://www.cacti.org <-- Macintosh & Rhapsody Resources From abridge at wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us Sun May 3 14:43:35 1998 From: abridge at wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (Adam Bridge) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Rhp., MacOS, and MkLinux on Mach! Message-ID: <199805032143.OAA04808@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us> >To Adam and Ismail: > >Why? > >Adam, if you can run Mac apps in the BlueBox, why strip out the rest of >Rhapsody (YB + BSD), "add a few bits" and then add a reimplemented YB back >in? I understand the concern that RDR1 is rough around the edges, and the >Blue Box is one of the rougher pieces. I believe the BB experience will get >better, and that Apple is working on it right now. > Steve, I'm not advocating that Apple take a particular route. I was suggesting a possible path. I don't think I suggested "reimplemented YB" at all. In fact I suggested there might be changes to the underlying MacOS to make YB work better. Not all applications require the entire software suite that Rhapsody provides and the subsequent requirement in resources such a suite requires. Sometimes small is beautiful. Having two DIFFERENT operating systems is not as elegant as having a SINGLE operating system layered with as much as code between implimentations. Thus what might be considered a minimal footprint system could be a low-end or a home solution while the full Rhapsody footprint would serve a different set of needs. >I don't mean to be harsh, but I really don't agree with either vision. >Rhapsody as I think it will happen--RDR1 but much cleaner and faster and >with a good Blue Box--fits the needs you both seem to be aiming at. > Well, harsh isn't quite the word that leaps to mind. Rhapsody as it will exist in its first incarnation appears to be to be an interim step for Apple. They need to fix the underlying problems that exist in the current MacOS. The MacOS is what current Apple developers know and understand. The Blue Box doesn't fix those problems, it simply provides an execution environment for legacy applications while applications native to Yellow Box and/or Rhapsody are developed. It hardly seems like a surprise to consider a scalable future with OS implimentations of varying sophistication to match the needs of various users. You DON'T need Rhapsody to run a box that runs your television or to be the heart of an instrumentation sub-system. But having a common code base that runs from a minimal OS (which really is NOT minimal) to that of a server is both desirable and rather elegant. Why? Programmer leverage. The real key, in my somewhat drifty opionion, is the Yellow Box software. Coding to it will allow me to run on Rhapsody, Windoze, and NT. And then MacOS. Doesn't it make sense to have as much code in common underneath Yellow Box? I think it does. And that alone is a compelling reason for Apple to move toward a mergine of MacOS and some part of the Rhapsody kernel. In my opinion, of course. We'll see in a week or so. I've got the donuts if you have the dollars. ;-) Regards, ------------------------------------------- Adam Bridge "...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason." Thomas Paine "Common Sense" Internet: abridge@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us Voice: (916) 756-4695 From setzer at backfence.net Sun May 3 08:34:47 1998 From: setzer at backfence.net (Setzer Family) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Rhp., MacOS, and MkLinux on Mach! In-Reply-To: <199805032143.OAA04808@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us> Message-ID: Chocolate covered? (donuts, not dollars) ;-) >In my opinion, of course. We'll see in a week or so. I've got the >donuts if you have the dollars. ;-) > >Regards, > > > >------------------------------------------- >Adam Bridge From sschuldt at mediaone.net Sun May 3 16:47:00 1998 From: sschuldt at mediaone.net (Steven W. Schuldt) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Rhapsody References: Message-ID: <9805032347.AA00602@helio.ne.mediaone.net> > 1. Does Apple realise the importance of making Yellow Box available for all major commercial flavours of Unix? More specifically, will Apple make Yellow Box available for Solaris, Irix, AIX, HP-UX, DEC Unix, Linux in addition to WinNT, 95/98 and MacOS? > This would be nice, but really outside of Solaris and maybe Linux these would be a whole lot of trouble merely for the sake of a check mark. > 2. Does Apple realise the importance of making Rhapsody available on Merced in addition to PowerPC and x86? Will Apple do this? > Of course. > 3. Can the Rhapsody development environment (OpenStep?) produce applications more flexible (wider range of uses) than Java applications? > The real problem here is that Sun can use the Java 'sandbox' to tout Java's security vis-a-vis OpenStep. All of the real action is on the web these days, I'd love it if Apple had some legitimate response to this issue and the Yellow Box runtime could be safely embedded in browsers and we could write YB applets but this is really the same problem that a technology like ActiveX faces. I'd love to hear any suggestions on how this might be done right. My personal fave is via some refined form of NSHosting (which, yes, currently has it's own security issues). People just don't realize how much fun it is to launch a NeXT app running on a machine 2000 miles away from a hyperlink in a web browser and have the UI pop up on your NT desktop. Much more fun than sucking some Java applet across the wire. BTW: Fun sells. > 4. If Yellow Box is available for the big commercial OSes, offers applications at native speed and the YB applications are produced by the OpenStep IDE (which can cut development time by up to 5/6 of a normal program development cycle), does Rhapsody stand a chance of becoming the pinnacle of what Java is supposed to be/offer? > No. The advantages of using 100% Pure Java, since 'write once run anywhere' is on the ropes, are boiling down to issues of security. Unless things go miraculously well - or if Microsoft blesses Yellow Box as a final 100% Pure Java back-breaker, there is little Apple can do to supplant the Java platform with OpenStep. That said, NeXT/Apple's strategy of absorbing Java into OpenStep was very wise, if a little depressing for Objective-C fans. It is a a trojan horse, as many new Yellow Box developers will discover the maturity of frameworks like EOF and be seduced into abandoning '100% purity'. The reasons that this seduction is not as sinister as, for example, Microsoft's attempts to rope people into relying on Win32 are that the OpenStep frameworks are arguably better OO technology than that of the Java libraries - and your app will still be able technically able to run on %99 of the desktops out there. The most likely scenario where YB makes major inroads on Java is as follows: Because so many have staked so much on Java's success, the Yellow Box proves to be a popular escape route for savvy Java developers needing to live up to some of their own hype and deliver actual enterprise class cross-platform solutions. > 5. Since OpenStep was introduced, have any other IDE's (development environments) come close to matching it in terms of ease of use leading to vastly decreased development cycles? > Some have touted Visual Age, Borland's Delphi and various Java IDE's. _I_ haven't found one. YMMV. > 6. Would it be possible that Apple might have lost sight of the need for Rhapsody to be totally (or as close to) crash proof? > Will CR1 be as stable as Solaris? Probably not. Will it be as stable as NT? Probably. Will it get more stable after numerous releases? Probably. If you have a UNIX operating system that is _CRASHING_ then you obviously have a serious problem that needs addressing. I think Avie and the boys can handle this, and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. > 7. What exactly is the "Enterprise Object something-or-other" that NeXT has also designed? Is it an application framework like Yellow Box, or is it a development environment, or programming libraries (if the lack of knowledge is totally apparent please avoid condemning it)? Could someone briefly explain it please? > Someone else already answered this well. > 8. Does anyone else share my optimism in believing that Apple could make the single greatest comeback in the personal computer industry if Rhapsody does most of what it is said to do? > Some have this at the back of their minds, it would be glorious surely, but it will be damnably hard to avoid the most likely scenario: 1) Apple ships CR1 to largely positive reviews. 2) Microsoft ships NT5, to ecstatic (largely bought and paid for) industry huzzahs - every operating system alternative is declared DOA. 3) Apple has a down quarter at some point and panics into selling out to (pick your favorite suitor). Scariest part is - this may in fact be the plan. The idea that Apple can 'retake the desktop' is a little silly at this late date. The gargantuan, bumbling inertia against this happening is perhaps the greatest force in the universe ;). Apple needs to redefine the rules of the game in order to truly 'come back'. YB and Rhap are still a chance for Apple to do so, but they need to get creative on the client side. If they just use the technology in some Sisyphean attempt to climb back to parity with Microsoft on the traditional desktop, well, see the scenario above. - Steve From sschaper at usa.net Sun May 3 15:56:45 1998 From: sschaper at usa.net (sschaper) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Missing amenities ... Message-ID: <199805032256.RAA06708@thor.inlink.com> > >Astronomers name Uranus's new moons >WASHINGTON (Reuters) May 1, 1998 - The astronomers who found two small moons >orbiting Uranus last year have decided to name them Caliban and Sycorax, >after characters mentioned in Shakespeare's play The Tempest. Caliban was the American Indian who studied under the wizard on the island. Sycorax was the witch that he got the spell-book from. From abridge at wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us Sun May 3 16:48:10 1998 From: abridge at wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (Adam Bridge) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Rhp., MacOS, and MkLinux on Mach! Message-ID: <199805032348.QAA07980@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us> >Chocolate covered? (donuts, not dollars) ;-) Kinky!!!!!! AB From scott at cacti.org Sun May 3 18:48:52 1998 From: scott at cacti.org (Scott Stevenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Rhapsody Message-ID: <199805040139.SAA28618@proxy3.ba.best.com> >2) Microsoft ships NT5, to ecstatic (largely bought and paid for) industry >huzzahs - every operating system alternative is declared DOA. Of course. All Microsoft has to do is to plant an ActiveX (or COM or whatever) applet in MSIE 5.0 that says: while (windows) bad = good good = good And this will happen until everyone figures it out. Fortunately, people seems to be "figuring it out" at a geometric rate. - Scott ------ Scott Stevenson scott@cacti.org http://www.cacti.org <-- Macintosh & Rhapsody Resources From galexand at ozemail.com.au Sun May 3 16:53:25 1998 From: galexand at ozemail.com.au (Greg Alexander) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Rhp., MacOS, and MkLinux on Mach! Message-ID: <01BD7742.7F1D1080@eddiejud> Steve Setzer wrote: >Adam, if you can run Mac apps in the BlueBox, why strip out the rest of >Rhapsody (YB + BSD), "add a few bits" and then add a reimplemented YB back >in? If future MacOS and Rhapsody will have the same PPC hardware support, then why have 2 separate kernels? Mach 3 is not big. >I believe the BB experience will get >better, and that Apple is working on it right now. If they can make MacOS run on Rhapsody's lower levels then they can get rid of those lower levels in MacOS - so MacOS stays the same size, but the BlueBox becomes smaller. Who wants Sonata-in-BlueBox to have another full copy of a Kernel, AND YB AND Quicktime AND JVM AND separate interfaces AND Colorsync? If they can make the same code run on the same kernel they gain! By pushing MacOS forward by Rhapsody integration they save code and reduce BlueBox to just the stuff that Rhapsody can't do. >Rhapsody as I think it will happen--RDR1 but much cleaner and faster and >with a good Blue Box--fits the needs you both seem to be aiming at. The key is "a good BlueBox". Their work comes from both sides - makes the BlueBox better and advances the MacOS. Painless evolution. Just my 2c. Greg begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(B 7`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`: $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````@0`````` M``"U.\+ +'<0&J&\" `K*E;"%0````\![Q98K]$1GX%(5.@AN$ZD@ `````` M`($K'Z2^HQ 9G6X`W0$/5 (```$`375L=&EP;&4@``$P`0```!4````G4FAA<'-O M9'D@5&%L:R!,:7-T)P`````"`0LP`0```"$```!33510.E)(05!33T19+51! M3$M 3TU.24=23U50+D-/30`````#```Y``````L`0#H!`````@'V#P$````$ M`````````M9,`02 `0`F````4D4Z(%)H<"XL($UA8T]3+"!A;F0@36M,:6YU M>"!O;B!-86-H(0!F"P$%@ ,`#@```,X'!0`$``D`-0`9``$`-@$!(( #``X` M``#.!P4`! `)`#(`%@`!`# !`0F `0`A````0T1&1CDS13@R044S1#$Q,3E& M.#$T.#4T13@R,4(X-$4`3@`!X,`0````4` M``!33510`````!X`'PP!````& ```&=A;&5X86YD0&]Z96UA:6PN8V]M+F%U M``,`!A ,&J"5`P`'$*L#```>``@0`0```&4```!35$5615-%5%I%4E=23U1% M.D%$04TL24993U5#04Y254Y-04-!4%!324Y42$5"3%5%0D]8+%=(65-44DE0 M3U545$A%4D535$]&4DA!4%-/1%DH64(K0E-$*2PB041$049%5T))``````(! M"1 !````' 0``!@$``"D!@``3%I&=?,C4U`H '"H$-L0M@;F@20('<+`V 50#H*A3Y!9&%(;2P@!I @>0A@(%)C`Y%R=0.@30#0 M(!AA<' $( N ('1H11S 0@I!0F]X'G!WV&AY(!4P!1$@"& %0*\@0A>@%3 A MH&8=ME(1P MH&8AP AP', ?@=Y/!? E@B,G`_!L`R 1P!L'#;!G$)\&,1)* B@" Q;Q'P.ZP@$;4J!"TA0&\I]14P814@WRAV*]<`D!T0'G!B M(<4@A?3/@&U\< M8/\H9SDO*]<%H VP.H8KUR^T53E$9PMQ(2AV0B$P<+AU10$ YXKYS05E#.#5")7,D M@'8`<.]-4B!"*@-=\% +<2; !!%?'* &\"' 6*$X/4I;LFVI(3 R8S@V1Q>@ M9PJ+>3*@,S8-\$^L%, =<6,7!4 *A1;!`' Steve Setzer wrote: >Ismail, why waste the cycles on an MkLinux compatibility layer? MkLinux is >not well regarded in the Linux community. The most useful software is >command-line based (perl, apache) and either already ported or easy to port >to a BSD system like Rhapsody For >those who really need it, X-Windows software is available for Rhapsody from >third parties. I see no software so necessary to the future that Rhapsody >must be binary-compatible with MkLinux; source-compatible is good enough. Since Apple is concentrating on PPC, binary compatibility isn't important (the main value is in non-PPC binaries!) So source compatibility with multiple systems is enough (the rumored deal with OpenBSD would do!) IF Apple is using MkLinux code or engineers its more likely to mean they're trying to learn from previous work! Mach 3 experience, Hardware integration (PPC &/or Intel), configuration, valuable unix extensions & software etc. That said - MkLinux is just RedHat Linux compiled to a special 'machine' which is Mach 3. Rhapsody already supplies a virtual machine (ala BlueBox) so making RedHat Linux run there might not take much effort. Don't know about Intel though... Just another 2c Greg begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(C(7`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`: $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````@0`````` M``"U.\+ +'<0&J&\" `K*E;"%0````\![Q98K]$1GX%(5.@AN$ZD@ `````` M`($K'Z2^HQ 9G6X`W0$/5 (```$`375L=&EP;&4@``$P`0```!4````G4FAA<'-O M9'D@5&%L:R!,:7-T)P`````"`0LP`0```"$```!33510.E)(05!33T19+51! M3$M 3TU.24=23U50+D-/30`````#```Y``````L`0#H!`````@'V#P$````$ M`````````M9,`02 `0`F````4D4Z(%)H<"XL($UA8T]3+"!A;F0@36M,:6YU M>"!O;B!-86-H(0!F"P$%@ ,`#@```,X'!0`$``D`.@`O``$`40$!(( #``X` M``#.!P4`! `(`"H`+ `!`#T!`0F `0`A````0T)&1CDS13@R044S1#$Q,3E& M.#$T.#4T13@R,4(X-$4`3 `!X,`0````4` M``!33510`````!X`'PP!````& ```&=A;&5X86YD0&]Z96UA:6PN8V]M+F%U M``,`!A!0]^W\`P`'$.4#```>``@0`0```&4```!35$5615-%5%I%4E=23U1% M.DE334%)3"Q72%E705-4151(14-90TQ%4T].04Y-2TQ)3E580T]-4$%424)) M3$E464Q!6452/TU+3$E.55A)4TY/5%=%3$Q214=!4D1%1$E.5$A%``````(! M"1 !````-@0``#($``!]!@``3%I&=?,C4U`H '"H$-L0M@;F@20('>+`V 50#H*A3Y)T M@>020/S<@5P0` M';9N'7 =0&5L^P,@%Z!G"Q$)@"*@`Z ?4AD@AVUU`P`AD"X@5"@860>T' 7021!RP6Q*R!S'M!T;RMC';;! M+&%A($)31";@%2.I(;!I:QS 4A' <";P$2M!(#QS`P!P/B#V1@6Q+-=H)D < MP!ZP+'!?*Q$CL![0*, D0G0>D%C$+5<+@&1O=P0@)OG=("!V'F$!H!_ ( (0 M!<#W+J<#4B_X:0L@*V *P"$P^P>0)=!))N )X#%P+' F]^LF\#%Q8P>0D#LT(-WY! !N)P5 !W K<@!P+,;^*!]2'E$#H#. "D$S M,B1QN2-0;BU"(3LD-D$A*B!^4S<"/5(@W3Q2"H4E<&Q_(3! HBWD1C$$(#[4 M111R=G4$8!>A( VP!T \1$]5*6!N+:)W"&!L3$%O\T> /TQ)1D!X)H!!LB!H MOPVP*],:H"BQ!)!&,70$(/],`BY#,5$L80> `' *A1]1_'DG.3(X4$&R+&$? MP K SP.@`U(K8!>@=FD(8 0@,4V "EA")! 01Z02 L1 M?R,>D$$19FEG"'!8XQZ0_T7" M,\,E@2# 5M 50 "!`B#M(L8F)N@2`&,_/27P.8&5.#!I)% M(BD@:CK"_E() M@%>0!4 @B ,0)$$M4\IS*6!C!S$@)P#!-;#M*, G+^8>L&E6@3-!5F3G)= N MIRKV"H@"H4WL0# OFM! MLF#;2^ D@R=1;5J@_F@%0"-2`9 N<25P5H$-P5L702701 (@0_%K(U!W_PJ% M`: (8 5 6>,?03[S;S ]/TQ*.L(`1VO0% ``@PP.^[ CR>1VO0$>`#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P``IKMV ` end From paul at eisusa.com Sun May 3 22:12:02 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Rhp., MacOS, and MkLinux on Mach! In-Reply-To: <01BD7742.7F1D1080@eddiejud> Message-ID: At 6:49 PM -0700 5/3/98, Greg Alexander wrote: >If they can make MacOS run on Rhapsody's lower levels then they >can get rid of those lower levels in MacOS - so MacOS stays >the same size, but the BlueBox becomes smaller. Well, I'm not sure how much low level stuff they can get rid of. IOParameter blocks are commonly used by applications doing background file operations, playing sound, special disk operations etc. The whole IOPB architecture is a royal mess, and I suspect this was one of the problems with copland. The BlueBox has to provide this I/O architecture for the apps. I don't think that they will save much code using Rhapsody's core. Just my 0.01 Paul From gcoffey at primenet.com Sun May 3 23:53:47 1998 From: gcoffey at primenet.com (Geoff Coffey) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <199805040651.XAA25685@smtp03.primenet.com> Hello Everyone: What's the word on rhapsody printer support. I suspect postscript printers are covered, but what about older but popular ink jets lacking postscript? More specifically what about my HP DeskWriter 550c? I wouldn't expect HP to put out a functioning Rhapsody driver until I turn 73 or so, so I'm hoping a third party solution is available? Thanks, Geoff From galexand at ozemail.com.au Mon May 4 00:14:56 1998 From: galexand at ozemail.com.au (Greg Alexander) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Rhp., MacOS, and MkLinux on Mach! Message-ID: <01BD7780.2A091740@eddiejud> Paul Nicholson (paul@eisusa.com) wrote: >At 6:49 PM -0700 5/3/98, Greg Alexander wrote: >>If they can make MacOS run on Rhapsody's lower levels then they >>can get rid of those lower levels in MacOS - so MacOS stays >>the same size, but the BlueBox becomes smaller. >Well, I'm not sure how much low level stuff they can get rid of. >IOParameter blocks are commonly used by applications doing background file >operations, playing sound, special disk operations etc. The whole IOPB >architecture is a royal mess, and I suspect this was one of the problems >with copland. The BlueBox has to provide this I/O architecture for the >apps. I don't think that they will save much code using Rhapsody's core. It would be a difficult weeding out a lot of the MacOS stuff. The thing is with a BlueBox approach they don't _have_ to weed it all out. They can leave the old stuff alone if it gets the job done - as long as developing technologies can by-pass it. I think that by using Rhapsody's lower levels (Kernel, filesystems) they can move towards providing newer services (quicktime, yb etc) from a common code base - so just one new code, and removal of previous code from the BlueBox Greg (sorry about the attachments - not my usual machine and they keep getting turned back on!) From gtupar at buzz.rz.henkel.de Mon May 4 02:20:25 1998 From: gtupar at buzz.rz.henkel.de (Georg Tuparev) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: MacOS/Rhapsody and the task bar In-Reply-To: <016101bd6fc8$9dc7c7e0$08000080@Noteworthy.IVI> References: <016101bd6fc8$9dc7c7e0$08000080@Noteworthy.IVI> Message-ID: <9805040920.AA00281@buzz.henkel.de> You wrote: > You can also move the bar to the right or left size of the screen, giving > you room for many more items. Try it with the hidden setting, and you won't > loose any screen space. You can also move it to the top of the screen ... looks almost like a Mac -- but more ugly - as usual.... -- georg -- --- ------- Georg Tuparev InterPoint, Ceintuurbaan 198-I 1072 GC Amsterdam, The Netherlands Mobile: +31-655-798196 Hiroshima 45, Tschernobyl 86, Windows 95, Office 97 From gtupar at buzz.rz.henkel.de Mon May 4 02:17:08 1998 From: gtupar at buzz.rz.henkel.de (Georg Tuparev) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: MacOS/Rhapsody and the task bar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9805040917.AA00275@buzz.henkel.de> You wrote: > You guys know the Win95/NT task bar can be resized to better-accomodate > we who run many apps, right? > > I find it quite comfortable using it relocated, hidden, at the top of the > screen with icons 2 layers deep....try it! Yeah! Cool! A left overs from the DOS times. And the day after - oh wonder - M$ introduced Win ... and you got a chance to switch between them. Cool! If I use this sh..t for all the windows I have on my screen, the entire screen has to be covered with task bars. Really cool. Why people don't use their thinker before posting to the list? (I'm not mentioning utopia wishes like good taste, elegance, and fun).. -- georg -- --- ------- Georg Tuparev InterPoint, Ceintuurbaan 198-I 1072 GC Amsterdam, The Netherlands Mobile: +31-655-798196 Hiroshima 45, Tschernobyl 86, Windows 95, Office 97 From gtupar at buzz.rz.henkel.de Mon May 4 03:53:11 1998 From: gtupar at buzz.rz.henkel.de (Georg Tuparev) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Quote from Microsoft In-Reply-To: <199805020909.CAA22887@proxy4.ba.best.com> References: <199805020909.CAA22887@proxy4.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <9805041053.AA00402@buzz.henkel.de> And if you see the picture of this road (top left) you need to drive at least a Land Rover. God help the users! -- georg -- You wrote: > No joke! > > > "The future of Windows is now, using devices and technology you already > know. The future of Windows is more like a walk down a well-known street > than a giant leap forward for humankind." > > > < InterPoint, Ceintuurbaan 198-I 1072 GC Amsterdam, The Netherlands Mobile: +31-655-798196 Hiroshima 45, Tschernobyl 86, Windows 95, Office 97 From thomases at gudmund.vgs.no Mon May 4 03:16:52 1998 From: thomases at gudmund.vgs.no (Thomas Sivertsen) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet Message-ID: <354D9594.17D2A100@gudmund.vgs.no> Hello again I thought I`d tell you people about a DR2 review on http://www.macnn.com/rhapnet/features/dr2/ It seems o.k, genuine and very good progress. I don`t actually know if it is genuine, but someone might know better. BTW; Only 7 dayys until the keynote on WWDC! Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen From fabienr at ncmi.com Mon May 4 07:41:05 1998 From: fabienr at ncmi.com (Fabien Roy) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Gil Amelio et al. (end of thread) In-Reply-To: <199805031959.PAA14808@bretweir.total.net> References: <199805031959.PAA14808@bretweir.total.net> Message-ID: <199805041441.HAA18065@ignem.omnigroup.com> This makes me think about something funny... Jobs got Scully (is it the right name?) from Pepsi. Scully fired Jobs. (You forgot: Scully hired Spindler, Spindler fired Scully (the board fired Scully) :-) Amelio got Jobs (when he bought NeXT). Jobs fired Amelio (ok, not Jobs, the board). --- Fabien L Roy NationsBanc Capital Markets, Inc voice: (704)386-75-76 100 North Tryon Street fax: (704)388-95-64 NC1-007-09-08 Charlotte NC 28255 Beeper: 143-9722 (1-800-946-46-46) or http://www.mobilemedia.com/home/web-page/web-page.htm email: fabienr@ncmi.com (NeXT/Mime) Pager-email 1439722@mobilecomm.net From ruediger at next12.Theo-Phys.Uni-Essen.DE Mon May 4 08:14:56 1998 From: ruediger at next12.Theo-Phys.Uni-Essen.DE (Ruediger Oberhage) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: MacOS/Rhapsody and the task bar References: <9805040920.AA00281@buzz.henkel.de> Message-ID: <9805041514.AA04236@next12.Theo-Phys.Uni-Essen.DE> > Georg Tuparev wrote: > You wrote: > > You can also move the bar to the right or left size of the > > screen, giving you room for many more items. Try it with the > > hidden setting, and you won't > > loose any screen space. > > You can also move it to the top of the screen ... looks almost like > a Mac -- but more ugly - as usual.... > Actually you can make it stand upright (! :-) ) at the (e.g) right side of the screen - the mode I use it if I have to use W95 - and it starts(!) to resemble the OPENSTEP dock. Ruediger From setzer at backfence.net Mon May 4 01:38:56 1998 From: setzer at backfence.net (Setzer Family) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <199805040651.XAA25685@smtp03.primenet.com> Message-ID: Rex Dieter has a package that uses Ghostscript as a print filter from NeXT's display postscript engine to print to Ghostscript-supported printers (including HP color inkjets). Currently it's a NeXTStep/OpenStep solution; I don't know if he's planning to update it, but he's ported a bunch of other stuff to Rhapsody. I don't have his email right handy; check out the "Software Uploads" page on StepWise to see if there's a mailto: link for Rex. Steve >Hello Everyone: > >What's the word on rhapsody printer support. I suspect postscript >printers are covered, but what about older but popular ink jets lacking >postscript? More specifically what about my HP DeskWriter 550c? I >wouldn't expect HP to put out a functioning Rhapsody driver until I turn >73 or so, so I'm hoping a third party solution is available? > >Thanks, > >Geoff From petro at playboy.com Mon May 4 10:32:25 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Quote from Microsoft In-Reply-To: <199805020909.CAA22887@proxy4.ba.best.com> Message-ID: At 3:12 AM -0600 5/2/98, Scott Stevenson wrote: >No joke! > > >"The future of Windows is now, using devices and technology you already >know. The future of Windows is more like a walk down a well-known street >than a giant leap forward for humankind." > > > More like a Chicago City street. Cracked, broken, badly patched, full of shattered peices of plastic and glass, lots of pissed off confused people & no hope of things getting any better because the people in charge really don't care as long as the money keeps rolling in... From sanguish at digifix.com Mon May 4 13:13:37 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805042013.QAA03379@digifix.com> Setzer Family wrote: > Rex Dieter has a package that uses Ghostscript as a print filter from > NeXT's display postscript engine to print to Ghostscript-supported printers > (including HP color inkjets). Currently it's a NeXTStep/OpenStep solution; > I don't know if he's planning to update it, but he's ported a bunch of > other stuff to Rhapsody. I don't have his email right handy; check out the > "Software Uploads" page on StepWise to see if there's a mailto: link for > Rex. > Its important to note that the only reason that Ghostscript was used was because of licensing issues with DPS.. Hopefully Apple and Adobe will huddle on this and there will be no need to go to such lengths.. From sanguish at digifix.com Mon May 4 13:15:53 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: <354D9594.17D2A100@gudmund.vgs.no> References: <354D9594.17D2A100@gudmund.vgs.no> Message-ID: <199805042015.QAA03402@digifix.com> This 'Review' was only possible by someone either at Apple, or a selected ISV that has decided to violate their confidentiality agreements. Further, it is WRONG of MacNN and RhapNet to publish something that is KNOWN to be confidential. Its unethical. Thomas Sivertsen wrote: > Hello again > > I thought I`d tell you people > about a DR2 review on > > http://www.macnn.com/rhapnet/features/dr2/ > > It seems o.k, genuine and very > good progress. I don`t > actually know if it is > genuine, but someone might > know better. > > BTW; Only 7 dayys until the > keynote on WWDC! > > Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen From abridge at wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us Mon May 4 13:49:11 1998 From: abridge at wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (Adam Bridge) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet Message-ID: <199805042049.NAA16548@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us> >This 'Review' was only possible by someone either at Apple, or a selected >ISV that has decided to violate their confidentiality agreements. > >Further, it is WRONG of MacNN and RhapNet to publish something that is >KNOWN >to be confidential. Its unethical. > Hmmm.........I'm not entirely this is true. IF they are journalists then they need to take into account many different aspects of their decision to publish. Unfortunately, most Rumors sites hardly come close to being journalists in any real sense. The unethical behavior really belongs the original person who has chosen to make public something which was private. I don't even let my kids see or play with Rhapsody or other non-disclosure Apple technology. I have Prelude to Rhapsody open all the time on my Intel hardware which is enough. ------------------------------------------- Adam Bridge "...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason." Thomas Paine "Common Sense" Internet: abridge@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us Voice: (916) 756-4695 From sanguish at digifix.com Mon May 4 13:55:45 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: <199805042049.NAA16548@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us> References: <199805042049.NAA16548@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us> Message-ID: <199805042055.QAA03777@digifix.com> Adam Bridge wrote: > >This 'Review' was only possible by someone either at Apple, or a selected > >ISV that has decided to violate their confidentiality agreements. > > > >Further, it is WRONG of MacNN and RhapNet to publish something that is > >KNOWN > >to be confidential. Its unethical. > > > > Hmmm.........I'm not entirely this is true. IF they are journalists then > they need to take into account many different aspects of their decision > to publish. Unfortunately, most Rumors sites hardly come close to being > journalists in any real sense. In this case, they knew that this information was not only confidential, but a trade secret. We're talking about unreleased DR2 here.. > The unethical behavior really belongs the original person who has chosen > to make public something which was private. > True.. although they know what they are doing is wrong as well... otherwise they wouldn't publish the articles under the rediculous psuedonym. > I don't even let my kids see or play with Rhapsody or other > non-disclosure Apple technology. I have Prelude to Rhapsody open all the > time on my Intel hardware which is enough. > Well... see, you have ethics.. :-) PTR isn't covered by NDA anyways (being the precursor of 4.2 which is now shipped).. From dbk at opentext.com Mon May 4 14:39:09 1998 From: dbk at opentext.com (Dan Keith) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: If RDR2's BlueBox has no IP, what are my options for connectivity? Message-ID: I read on MacOSRumours that DR2's BlueBox will be limited in the same way that DR1 was limited; i.e., you can only do AppleTalk-based networking. While this is still a rumour, I fear it may be true, since Apple probably doesn't want DR2 to be too useful (at least, not until people are paying for it). If it is true, are there any new options available for connecting my AppleTalk only BlueBox to the rest of the world. Ideally, I'd be able to run and AppleTalkIP gateway under the Rhapsody YellowBox. Has such a beast been written? I'd rather not have to run the $99 SurfDoubler gateway proposed here earlier, since it requires another Mac. Are there any such gateways that run under NT (I have a spare PC)? I hope that this question is moot and that DR2 BlueBox will work with Ethernet/IP directly. If not, though, I'd like to get the requisite software set up before DR2 arrives. I really want to switch my development over to Rhapsody/BlueBox from MacOS, but I can't do that without connectivity. bud ! Dan "Bud" Keith dbk@mcs.com ! "You never can tell what goes on down below. This pool might be bigger than you or I know." - Dr. Seuss From eugene at neosoft.com Mon May 4 14:44:20 1998 From: eugene at neosoft.com (Eugene Lee) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: <199805042015.QAA03402@digifix.com> from Scott Anguish at "May 4, 98 01:18:49 pm" Message-ID: <199805042144.QAA09118@inferno.ops.neosoft.com> Scott Anguish said: :Thomas Sivertsen wrote: :> :> I thought I`d tell you people :> about a DR2 review on :> :> http://www.macnn.com/rhapnet/features/dr2/ : :This 'Review' was only possible by someone either at Apple, or a selected :ISV that has decided to violate their confidentiality agreements. : :Further, it is WRONG of MacNN and RhapNet to publish something that is KNOWN :to be confidential. Its unethical. I agree, and I'm sure Apple is well-aware of the rumor sites. But it's really up to Apple to protect their property, and prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. I'm not aware of any instances of Apple prosecuting a developer for violating an NDA. Thoughts? -- Eugene Lee eugene@neosoft.com From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Mon May 4 17:27:07 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Apple acquired something from Macromedia Message-ID: <199805050027.TAA00602@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> According to Reuters, Apple acquired Quicktime-related technology from Macromedia. It's probably Final Cut, the video-editing package. Hmm. Wonder if it'll show up on YellowBox? If they *do* port to YellowBox, that'll provide some strong impetus for Adobe become a vocal YB developer. Avid might feel the need to come forward as well. A YellowBox version of Final Cut could also help get the runtime onto Windows boxes (but not as a pre-load). Between the Claris apps and Final Cut, Apple has the makings of a decent package of YellowBox apps. Apple might just be taking the 'no Rhapsody shrinkwrap' problem into its own hands. - Jon From ziyaoz at earthlink.net Mon May 4 18:01:25 1998 From: ziyaoz at earthlink.net (Ziya Oz) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Apple acquired something from Macromedia Message-ID: <199805050048.RAA16823@italy.it.earthlink.net> On 5/4/98 8:31 PM, Jonathan Hendry wrote: >Apple might just be taking >the 'no Rhapsody shrinkwrap' problem into its own hands. By far the cheapest and most sensible approach (a la Microsoft), short of taking out $50 million and cajoling, bribing, or browbeating some 20-25 top developers to port or else. Ziya From louispel at total.net Mon May 4 18:30:47 1998 From: louispel at total.net (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Apple acquired something from Macromedia Message-ID: <199805050130.VAA07619@bretweir.total.net> Jonathan Hendry at "jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com" said on 04/05/98 20:30 : > >According to Reuters, Apple acquired Quicktime-related >technology from Macromedia. It's probably Final Cut, the >video-editing package. This may seem ackward.. but... what is Final Cut? And what could it do for Rhapsody and/or YB? Thanks, L. Pelletier. From pat at qhp.queensu.ca Mon May 4 19:01:23 1998 From: pat at qhp.queensu.ca (Pat Taylor) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Apple acquired something from Macromedia In-Reply-To: <199805050130.VAA07619@bretweir.total.net> Message-ID: >Jonathan Hendry at "jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com" said on 04/05/98 20:30 : > >>According to Reuters, Apple acquired Quicktime-related >>technology from Macromedia. It's probably Final Cut, the >>video-editing package. > L. Pelletier wrote: >This may seem ackward.. but... what is Final Cut? And what could it do >for Rhapsody and/or YB? Apple has released a press release confirming the Reuters story concerning the purchase. Final Cut is a very long awaited and much delayed video editing and SFX package written by the guys that originally created Adobe Premiere. It was supposed to have initially appeared over a year and a half ago ... but it was delayed because of various technological road bumps. It would probably make a dandy Rhapsody program but it will initially only be available for OS8 and NT. Cheers, Patrick ______________________________________________________________ Patrick Taylor Kingston, Ontario, CANADA mailto:pat@qhp.queensu.ca http://www.stepwise.com "These are my principles, if you don't like them ... I've got others." --Groucho Marx From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Mon May 4 19:08:31 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Apple acquired something from Macromedia References: <199805050048.RAA16823@italy.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <199805050208.VAA00644@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> > >Apple might just be taking > >the 'no Rhapsody shrinkwrap' problem into its own hands. > > By far the cheapest and most sensible approach (a la Microsoft), short of > taking out $50 million and cajoling, bribing, or browbeating some 20-25 > top developers to port or else. Yep. Just as long as they don't give the apps away (forever) and kill the market for competing apps. And if they *do* sell their apps, they should aim for a happy, profitable #2 or #3 marketshare, not a Microsoft-esque, dominating #1. If the apps are great, and they happen to be #1, cool. But they shouldn't use seek-and-destroy tactics against competitors. The Apple apps should provide a standard of quality, not an unassailable market barrier. Also, if they provide public, documented DO or bundle API's to their applications, they could spur a vast extension market suitable for lots of 'little guys'. (On the other hand, this market is going to feel the most pressure from freeware.) Competing applications should also be able to use these extensions. - Jon From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Mon May 4 19:12:44 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Apple acquired something from Macromedia References: Message-ID: <199805050212.VAA00649@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> >It would probably make a dandy Rhapsody program but it will initially only >be available for OS8 and NT. In understand that was the plan, but plans may have changed, no? The Apple announcment doesn't discuss specifics. A search of Macromedia's website reveals that at the NAB conference last year, a Compaq NT workstation was called the 'reference platform' for Final Cut. I expect that has changed also. ;^) - Jon From jebask at sound.net Mon May 4 20:21:22 1998 From: jebask at sound.net (Jim Baskins) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Apple acquired something from Macromedia Message-ID: <199805050320.UAA01384@ignem.omnigroup.com> On 5/4/98 9:01 PM Pat Taylor pat@qhp.queensu.ca wrote: >>Jonathan Hendry at "jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com" said on 04/05/98 20:30 : >> >>>According to Reuters, Apple acquired Quicktime-related >>>technology from Macromedia. It's probably Final Cut, the >>>video-editing package. >> >L. Pelletier wrote: >>This may seem ackward.. but... what is Final Cut? And what could it do >>for Rhapsody and/or YB? > >Apple has released a press release confirming the Reuters story concerning >the purchase. > > >Final Cut is a very long awaited and much delayed video editing and SFX >package written by the guys that originally created Adobe Premiere. It was >supposed to have initially appeared over a year and a half ago ... but it >was delayed because of various technological road bumps. > >It would probably make a dandy Rhapsody program but it will initially only >be available for OS8 and NT. > >Cheers, >Patrick > > Never one to question the more informed members of this list, I must however wonder how you folks know this technology bought by Apple is indeed Final Cut. Neither the Rueters or Apple pages mention any particulars. I confess I know little about Final Cut or how it would fit in with Apple's plans for Rhapsody - perhaps a little more detail about this aspect would help me, and possibly others, to understand. Thanks for the bandwidth, Brother Jim Home Systems by Design, Inc. From setzer at backfence.net Mon May 4 13:48:35 1998 From: setzer at backfence.net (Setzer Family) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: <199805042055.QAA03777@digifix.com> Message-ID: And why is everybody so sure these leaks are not intentional? There are several reasons why any given rumor, including true information, might have come from the executive offices at Apple: 1) Pre-WWDC buildup/anticipation--the master showman might well want to give the audience a little teaser before the main event 2) Trial balloon--if something isn't well received, you can always claim it was just a rumor 3) "Canary Trap"-- if you give specific info to someone and it shows up on the net, you know which person is talking (unlikely for the DR2 story I grant) Most of these rumors are probably unauthorized disclosures. But I also think that, now that Jobs has tighter control over leaks within Apple, some of the leaks we see are carefully orchestrated from One Infinite Loop. Steve From sanguish at digifix.com Mon May 4 20:42:35 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805050342.XAA05810@digifix.com> Setzer Family wrote: > And why is everybody so sure these leaks are not intentional? > I'm fairly confident in saying that the RhapNet 'DR2' breach is not an intentional leak. I'm also fairly confident that if Apple wanted to spread a rumour, they would do so through other channels.. > There are several reasons why any given rumor, including true information, > might have come from the executive offices at Apple: > > Most of these rumors are probably unauthorized disclosures. But I also > think that, now that Jobs has tighter control over leaks within Apple, some > of the leaks we see are carefully orchestrated from One Infinite Loop. Perhaps when it comes to marketing issues, but I doubt very much that is the case when it comes to Technical details.. Its quite likely the usual loose lips of the discontented at Apple. There are folks within Apple that don't want to see Rhapsody succeed and will do just about anything to see that happen. From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Mon May 4 21:41:27 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet References: <199805050342.XAA05810@digifix.com> Message-ID: <199805050441.XAA00712@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> > Setzer Family wrote: > > And why is everybody so sure these leaks are not intentional? > > > > I'm fairly confident in saying that the RhapNet 'DR2' breach is not > an intentional leak. > > I'm also fairly confident that if Apple wanted to spread a rumour, > they would do so through other channels.. A rumor, perhaps, but an entire review? The problem with planting rumors is that they are subject to skew and misinterpretation. None of the 'AMP' brouhaha had this kind of detail. The review seems too complete for a mere rumor. If the DR2 review *was* an intentional leak, something like Rhapnet would be ideal, because they could control the entire article. CNet or MacWeek would just report a little bit, filtered badly, with a remark from that lone positive analyst, and the obligatory negative analyst's remark making it a wash in the end. It seems to me it could be either (leak or planted). It's hard to say these days. For that matter, who's to say the Pseudonymous author isn't (for this article) someone involved with Rhapsody marketing? Does Ernie P. have a thing for Penguins? Hmm. The initials are the same... Nah. The author evidently likes little icons instead of God's Own Icons. Couldn't be Ernie. *If* Rhapsody has made a *lot* of progress since the version described in the leak, it might be useful for people to have a frame of reference for Rhapsody's recent progress. There'll probably be reports on Rhapsody's current status after WWDC. This leak *does* get Rhapsody fresh in people's minds, ready for comparison with whatever is revealed next week. If DR2/WWDC has come a long way since the 'reviewed' version, it will appear as though Apple's making very rapid progress. It'll be an illusion of sorts, but it may help counter any remaining 'it'll never ship' Coplanditis. Consider it an attempt at managing expectations. If Rhapsody has not come very far since this build, it could be rather disappointing. I really don't like leaks. But, since it's been leaked, let's look at the lemonade. The article was pretty clueful - definitely better than what we've seen before. The only thing that stood out for me was the bit about the machine hanging, looking for a Netinfo server. No really bad, way-off mistakes. No dimwitted claims that "the underlying OS is MkLinux!" And, it was rather positive. Between this and the cluefulness, I do wonder about the source. (Then again, it was on 'rhapnet', so the tone could have been adjusted for the audience.) Overall, I'd have to say this was less damaging than Ric Ford's review of DR1 for macweek. There wasn't anything in there that I would consider to be of truly strategic importance. Most of it was expected UI changes. (It's not like they described release notes about built-in software RAID, or anything. Not that I know. I haven't been anywhere near, or heard anything about, DR2.) And, if this *was* an oldish build, there's probably a lot still confidential. It this version was demonstrated, non-NDA, at any trade shows the damamge is probably even less. Anyone wanting to snoop a look at this build of Rhapsody could have done it then easily. First-hand, too. On the other hand, the longer the competition sleeps, the better. The longer Microsoft, Sun, Novell, HP, SCO, SGI, Digital, and even Be remain cocky, ignorant, and complacent, the better. It may have been better if the review had said installation and performance were awful, and the UI was incomprehensible. (Yes, I really meant Be.) - Jon (BTW, if anyone doubts the competetive importance of leaks to Apple, you should see how snoopy _cosmetics_ firms can be.) From setzer at backfence.net Mon May 4 16:02:18 1998 From: setzer at backfence.net (Setzer Family) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Apple acquired something from Macromedia In-Reply-To: <199805050320.UAA01384@ignem.omnigroup.com> Message-ID: Why Final Cut? Educated guess--Macromedia worked on Final Cut for quite a while; the only other QuickTime related technologies they have are Director and Authorware, both of which are bread-and-butter products and unlikely to be for sale. Macromedia was rumored to be shopping Final Cut around. Why would Apple buy it? No idea, unless there's a Rhapsody angle (see below). How would it fit in with Rhapsody? It probably is not an OpenStep-compliant app currently. It's probably it's a C++ app written to the Toolbox or to MacApp, then ported to Windows using Altura's Mac2Win--if so, using Latitude to get it to Rhapsody would not be too difficult a trick. If Final Cut were to show up on Rhapsody it could legitimize Rhapsody in the low-to-mid-range video editing market, which Apple has owned since Commodore's demise but is in danger of losing to WinNT and BeOS. Hollywood's former Amigoids still lament the loss of their wonderful preemptive multitasking system; Rhapsody with Final Cut might fulfill some of their dreams. Clear as mud? :-) Steve >Never one to question the more informed members of this list, I must >however wonder how you folks know this technology bought by Apple is >indeed Final Cut. Neither the Rueters or Apple pages mention any >particulars. I confess I know little about Final Cut or how it would fit >in with Apple's plans for Rhapsody - perhaps a little more detail about >this aspect would help me, and possibly others, to understand. From ziyaoz at earthlink.net Mon May 4 23:25:29 1998 From: ziyaoz at earthlink.net (Ziya Oz) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet Message-ID: <199805050612.XAA24647@italy.it.earthlink.net> On 5/5/98 12:43 AM, Jonathan Hendry wrote: >On the other hand, the longer the competition sleeps, the better. The >longer Microsoft, Sun, Novell, HP, SCO, SGI, Digital, and even Be >remain cocky, ignorant, and complacent, the better. Are you *really* saying that IF Microsoft wanted to know about Rhapsody, they'd resort to reading about it on RhapNet? Ziya From sanguish at digifix.com Mon May 4 23:23:36 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: <199805050441.XAA00712@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> References: <199805050441.XAA00712@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <199805050623.CAA06306@digifix.com> Jonathan Hendry wrote: > > Setzer Family wrote: > > > And why is everybody so sure these leaks are not intentional? > > > > > > > I'm fairly confident in saying that the RhapNet 'DR2' breach is not > > an intentional leak. > > > > I'm also fairly confident that if Apple wanted to spread a rumour, > > they would do so through other channels.. > > A rumor, perhaps, but an entire review? The problem with planting rumors > is that they are subject to skew and misinterpretation. None of the > 'AMP' brouhaha had this kind of detail. The review seems too complete > for a mere rumor. Apple won't even say Rhapsody to anyone... and they are being really closed lipped in trying to get information out of anyone, so I just don't see Apple being involved in any of this. Even less someone like Ernie P. With WWDC only a week a way, I don't see Apple pulling anything like this that would dilute the impact of what is shown. From galexand at ozemail.com.au Mon May 4 23:56:32 1998 From: galexand at ozemail.com.au (Greg Alexander) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Why DR2? Message-ID: <01bd77f2$eff677a0$013ba8c0@smarts> As a person who hasn't used Rhapsody - why would Apple release a DR2? Unless CR1 is going to be perfection - shouldn't Rhapsody be getting close to beta? Greg ************************************* http://www.ozemail.com.au/~galexand mailto:galexand@ozemail.com.au * From PEVSNEM at rbos.co.uk Tue May 5 01:50:00 1998 From: PEVSNEM at rbos.co.uk (Pevsner, Mike) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: Rhapsody information subscibe. Message-ID: please subscribe me, Mike. Legal disclaimer : The opinions expressed in this message are those of the sender and not those of The Royal Bank of Scotland plc From scott at cacti.org Tue May 5 02:07:02 1998 From: scott at cacti.org (Scott Stevenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet Message-ID: <199805050857.BAA27733@proxy3.ba.best.com> >This 'Review' was only possible by someone either at Apple, or a selected >ISV that has decided to violate their confidentiality agreements. > >Further, it is WRONG of MacNN and RhapNet to publish something that is >KNOWN >to be confidential. Its unethical. I really am not that knowledgeable in this area, but couldn't Apple sue the offending site? - Scott ------ Scott Stevenson scott@cacti.org http://www.cacti.org <-- Macintosh & Rhapsody Resources From Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk Tue May 5 02:18:28 1998 From: Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk (mmalcolm crawford) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: <199805050441.XAA00712@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> References: <199805050441.XAA00712@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <199805050918.KAA01713@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Jon wrote: > > Setzer Family wrote: > > > And why is everybody so sure these leaks are not intentional? [...] > It seems to me it could be either (leak or planted). > I do not believe that it was planted. < It's hard to say these > days. For that matter, who's to say the Pseudonymous author isn't (for this > article) someone involved with Rhapsody marketing? Does Ernie P. have a > thing for Penguins? Hmm. The initials are the same... Nah. The author > evidently likes little icons instead of God's Own Icons. Couldn't be Ernie. > Correct -- it couldn't be Ernie. > *If* Rhapsody has made a *lot* of progress since the version described in > the leak, it might be useful for people to have a frame of reference for > Rhapsody's recent progress. > What is pathetic about the RhapNet article is that, despite their ballyhoo, it actually says little more than the review of Titan I posted back in January: http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Editorial/MacWorld_SF_98.html Note that I got clearance from Apple to release this article. > This leak *does* get Rhapsody fresh in people's minds, > I doubt it does, actually -- people are already interested or not interested, and there has been enough chitchat about announcements at WWDC to raise the level of awareness. > ready for comparison with whatever is revealed next week. [...] > If Rhapsody has not come very far since this build, it could be > rather disappointing. > So there you go -- one excellent reason why the review should not have been posted; it may steal Apple's thunder. > I really don't like leaks. But, since it's been leaked, let's look > at the lemonade. The article was pretty clueful - definitely better > than what we've seen before. The only thing that stood out for me > was the bit about the machine hanging, looking for a Netinfo server. > No really bad, way-off mistakes. > I'd count that as a really bad, way-off mistake. > No dimwitted claims that "the underlying > OS is MkLinux!" And, it was rather positive. Between this and the > cluefulness, I do wonder about the source. (Then again, it was on > 'rhapnet', so the tone could have been adjusted for the audience.) > No questions about the source -- I firmly believe it was not Apple. > Overall, I'd have to say this was less damaging than Ric Ford's review > of DR1 for macweek. > True -- it doesn't excuse it, though. > There wasn't anything in there that I would consider > to be of truly strategic importance. Most of it was expected UI changes. > Most of it I wrote up four months ago, so the technical content isn't of strategic importance. What is important is the total disregard for the NDA, and, as I said above, eclipsing Apple's announcements at WWDC. Best wishes, mmalc. From arnoud at grafisis.nl Tue May 5 02:22:07 1998 From: arnoud at grafisis.nl (Arnoud Helmantel) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: <199805050857.BAA27733@proxy3.ba.best.com> Message-ID: >>This 'Review' was only possible by someone either at Apple, or a selected >>ISV that has decided to violate their confidentiality agreements. >> >>Further, it is WRONG of MacNN and RhapNet to publish something that is >>KNOWN >>to be confidential. Its unethical. > >I really am not that knowledgeable in this area, but couldn't Apple sue >the offending site? > > - Scott They probably could, but what would they gain? If Apple would sue MacNN/RhapNet, I think it would be rather bad PR... Remember when Apple tried to Apple was pushing against MacinTouch, and they simply published Apple's threatening letters, resulting in a lot of bad press against Apple... Arnoud -- Arnoud Helmantel | GrafiSIS & AdvieSIS BV arnoud@grafisis.nl | www.grafisis.nl From jknight at MIT.EDU Tue May 5 04:35:16 1998 From: jknight at MIT.EDU (James Knight) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: <199805050342.XAA05810@digifix.com> Message-ID: > Its quite likely the usual loose lips of the discontented at Apple. > > There are folks within Apple that don't want to see Rhapsody succeed >and will do just about anything to see that happen. That's the most ridiculous statement I've heard yet. Just how does that review help to make Rhapsody not succeed? If its because it releases vital info about Rhapsody to competitors, that's BS. If a competitor wants Rhapsody info, they'll sign up for the Apple Dev Program and get it themselves! Six days is not going to make much of a difference. (not that the article said much of anything useful to competitors anyways) Anyways, I'm not condoning breaking a NDA, but geez, the consequences of this violation are practically nil for Apple, so I don't see what every one's getting all upset about. Its not like those changes weren't expected for DR2...more Mac like and faster... -James From Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk Tue May 5 05:10:43 1998 From: Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk (mmalcolm crawford) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805051210.NAA01885@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> James wrote: > >Its quite likely the usual loose lips of the discontented at Apple. > > > >There are folks within Apple that don't want to see Rhapsody succeed > >and will do just about anything to see that happen. > > That's the most ridiculous statement I've heard yet. Just how does that > review help to make Rhapsody not succeed? > Umm, you misinterpreted Scott's comments: the review per se may not help Rhapsody not succeed, however many people have suggested that there may still be malcontents within Apple who would rather that Rhapsody did not succeed. Scott's point is that these people might think that they serve their cause by generating frustration about Rhapsody within Apple, and they could do that by releasing confidential information. Best wishes, mmalc. From stefan.huy at stud.uni-hannover.de Tue May 5 05:33:48 1998 From: stefan.huy at stud.uni-hannover.de (Stefan Huy) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet Message-ID: <199805051233.OAA03253@studserv.stud.uni-hannover.de> To me there is a problem with Apple's own strategy that sometimes makes it hard to understand the hype around the "top secret" projects. I have signed that NDA, so I won't leak anthing about Rhapsody that hasn't been in the press or in the net. But I must say that there's isn't very much anymore that you haven't already read somewhere. So these two ways Apple handles secret technologies really makes one wonder why one shouldn't talk about it? And for me the EP-article really wasn't new after mmalc's Stepwise editorial. And anyone else could have read it without signing a NDA. Don't get me wrong, I really respect my NDA since I see the reasons for keeping new developments secret and simply because I gave my word, but... ... for me there is a strong difference between the way Apple's engineers see this issue ("Psst, it's not ready for prime time!") and the way the marketing does ("Hey, wanna see our new baby?"). So as a developer you are forced to not say anything about Rhapsody or Allegro and on the other hand you read detailed articles, sometimes from authors who don't seem to understand anything about what they write. I wrote several articles for a German web master magazine, containing screenshots and more or less detailed info. And there was no problem to get the clearance from Apple (What I really appreciated!). Maybe because the articles where quite positive. But I also read articles on Rhapsody that talked about the great underlyings and then spend the rest of the pages on criticising the bad interface (it's a DR, stupid!), just to write a "critical" article. In addition to the articles nearly anybody can get the seeding if he/she signs the NDA. So there should't be a problem for MS or others to get their hands on Apple's dev seed if they are willing to pay for it. But I really think that they might get it directly from Apple and the really confidential things aren't part of the developer seed. For me Apple has to work on its credibility concerning the confidentiality of their seeds. Yes, it's Apple's decision if they like to spread info, but it's simply not understandable why a developer who pays for his membership isn't allowed to say anything about the seed while everybody can read about it in the papers. I think if Apple themselves keep their secret technologies more confidential there would be much more respect for the NDA from the developer community since they would get the feeling that they are somehow part of the team. So spread the info or don't, but don't keep up this distiction between autors and developers. Besides: In the case of Rhapsody, I would have welcomed it if Apple had made it possible to give the software to interested and qualified people outside the paying developer community. I know several qualified people I would like to show the possibilities of Rhapsody and let them play around with it, but I can't because of the NDA. cu -Stefan __Stefan Huy___________________________________________________________ ____ ______ mailto:huy@stud.uni-hannover.de ________ http://www.stud.uni-hannover.de/~huy ______________________________________________________________________ From herren at flannet.middlebury.edu Tue May 5 06:06:57 1998 From: herren at flannet.middlebury.edu (David Herren) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:16 2005 Subject: boot laptop without floppy? Message-ID: As I've been configuring my recently acquired Tecra to dual boot Rhapsody and NT, I've encountered one last (I hope) snag that I don't know how to deal with. NT will boot just fine without the external floppy attached (I'd rather keep the CD-ROM internal than the floppy), but Rhapsody hangs and times out if it doesn't find the floppy attached. Is there any way to tell it to use the floppy if it finds it, but to continue the boot even if it's not attached? A second best config would be to tell it never to look for the floppy but I'd prefer the former if possible. -- David D. Herren www.cet.middlebury.edu/herren Assoc. Dir. for Tech. & Instruction herren@flannet.middlebury.edu Center for Educational Technology voice: (802)443-5746 Middlebury College, Middlebury, VT 05753 fax: (802)443-2053 From herren at flannet.middlebury.edu Tue May 5 06:33:35 1998 From: herren at flannet.middlebury.edu (David Herren) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: boot laptop without floppy? References: <199805051318.IAA01033@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: This list is great. In less than 10 minutes of posting my question I had two equally workable answers. tuparev@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de writes: > Just wait long enough. After N time-outs it continue booting... and; jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com writes: >You might be able to edit /private/Drivers/i386/System.config/Instance0.table >and remove 'Floppy' from the list of "Boot Drivers". >If that works, you should be able to save two versions, one with Floppy >(called Floppy.table) and one without (Instance0.table). >Then, if you want to boot with the floppy, you should be able to type >"config=Floppy" at the boot prompt. ACtually I've done something a little different from both suggestions. I left my Instance0.table as is, and created another one called NoFloppy.table. Thus if I remember, I can type config=NoFloppy at the boot prompt. If I don't remember, I have to wait about 2 minutes, but it will still boot. And of course if the floppy is in fact plugged in, it's unlikely I'd inadvertantly type config=NoFloppy. Thanks guys. -- David D. Herren www.cet.middlebury.edu/herren Assoc. Dir. for Tech. & Instruction herren@flannet.middlebury.edu Center for Educational Technology voice: (802)443-5746 Middlebury College, Middlebury, VT 05753 fax: (802)443-2053 From lavoie at cst.ca Tue May 5 06:58:49 1998 From: lavoie at cst.ca (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: <199805051233.OAA03253@studserv.stud.uni-hannover.de> Message-ID: At 5:36 -0700 5/5/1998, Stefan Huy wrote: >Besides: In the case of Rhapsody, I would have welcomed it if Apple had >made it possible to give the software to interested and qualified people >outside the paying developer community. I know several qualified people I >would like to show the possibilities of Rhapsody and let them play around >with it, but I can't because of the NDA. I agree that the NDA currently imposes a restriction wich is then ignored even by Apple's staff. But, the NDA has a purpose wich is, I beleive, far more important than just not telling people about the goodies that are to come. Yes, it's important to keep some level of secrecy in order to create a bigger splash at introduction, but I see more to it than that. Given that Rhapsody isn't quite ready for prime time, and that the level of support and applications currently available (and otherwise announced) isn't quite enough to satisfy the current crop of Mac users that are willing to upgrade, it's smart for Apple to put the marketting enphasis on current Mac OS technologies, so that they can sell as many of those as possible. Otherwise, people would just be waiting for the NeXT Big Thing. This is exactly what happend with Win95. There ar more users of Win16 out there than there are of Win95. Many WinNT users are direct converts from Win16, and never went directly to Win95, causing Win95 to be a looser across the line. If Apple keeps Rhapsody under the wraps a little longer, it can only be good for Mac OS. Then, when Rhapsody is ready, you can bet that there's going to be an even bigger bang for it than the launch of Mac OS 8. And guess what? My current assumption is that far more big software companies (like Adobe, for example) are preparing for Rhapsody, and will probably jointly announce their offerings at the launch of Rhapsody, just to make a bigger entrance and create momentum. Jobs, apparently, can be a jack ass. But he's a smart jack ass. And he's not alone. I'm willing to bet a week's salary that all of the tidbits that gets through the cracks at Apple aren't accidents. They're both feeding rumor sites to feel the reactions and readjusting if necessary before the big launch. With all that Y2K shit comming in on the Win platforms, the timing couldn't be better for Apple to make a big entrance both in the server market and in the high-end market. Martin-Gilles Lavoie | "No! Try not. Do, or do not. Mac OS programmer, CS&T | There is no try." lavoie@cst.ca | -- Yoda on error handling From gtupar at buzz.rz.henkel.de Tue May 5 07:12:00 1998 From: gtupar at buzz.rz.henkel.de (Georg Tuparev) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: boot laptop without floppy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9805051412.AA01210@buzz.henkel.de> Just wait long enough. After N time-outs it continue booting... have fun -- georg -- You wrote: > Is there any way to tell it to use the floppy if it finds it, but to > continue the boot even if it's not attached? A second best config would be > to tell it never to look for the floppy but I'd prefer the former if > possible. --- ------- Georg Tuparev InterPoint, Ceintuurbaan 198-I 1072 GC Amsterdam, The Netherlands Mobile: +31-655-798196 Hiroshima 45, Tschernobyl 86, Windows 95, Office 97 From arnoud at grafisis.nl Tue May 5 07:11:43 1998 From: arnoud at grafisis.nl (Arnoud Helmantel) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Jobs, apparently, can be a jack ass. But he's a smart jack ass. And he's >not alone. I'm willing to bet a week's salary that all of the tidbits that >gets through the cracks at Apple aren't accidents. They're both feeding >rumor sites to feel the reactions and readjusting if necessary before the >big launch. > I am pretty sure that not 100% of all information that appears in these rumor-sites is directly and intentionally leaked from Apple... Some might, but other would/could be pretty unwise I'd say... Aren't you making that much a week? ;-) Arnoud. -- Arnoud Helmantel | GrafiSIS & AdvieSIS BV arnoud@grafisis.nl | www.grafisis.nl From Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk Tue May 5 07:17:03 1998 From: Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk (mmalcolm crawford) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805051417.PAA02044@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Martin wrote: [other good stuff cut] > Jobs, apparently, can be a jack ass. But he's a smart jack ass. And he's > not alone. I'm willing to bet a week's salary that all of the tidbits that > gets through the cracks at Apple aren't accidents. > Hmm, that's an ambiguous statement. In the context I'd interpret this as suggesting that all the tidbits are in fact deliberate. If that's the case then I'd definitely take you up on this. Whatever, as I stated before, given thetone of their response to private email, and the errors they make in their report, I'd be pretty sure that the RhapNet expose was not officially sanctioned. Best wishes, mmalc. From lavoie at cst.ca Tue May 5 08:05:34 1998 From: lavoie at cst.ca (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: <199805051417.PAA02044@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Message-ID: At 7:18 -0700 5/5/1998, mmalcolm crawford wrote: >Martin wrote: > >[other good stuff cut] >> Jobs, apparently, can be a jack ass. But he's a smart jack ass. And he's >> not alone. I'm willing to bet a week's salary that all of the tidbits that >> gets through the cracks at Apple aren't accidents. >> >Hmm, that's an ambiguous statement. In the context I'd interpret this as >suggesting that all the tidbits are in fact deliberate. If that's the case >then I'd definitely take you up on this. > >Whatever, as I stated before, given thetone of their response to private >email, and the errors they make in their report, I'd be pretty sure that the >RhapNet expose was not officially sanctioned. > >Best wishes, > >mmalc. Well, obviously, not all of it is deliberate. Some of us might take things for granted, and wrongly assume some info, and then spread it out, adding to the confusion and deliberate leaks. But, anything that's remotly tangible, I'd say it's planted carefully. And, to answer Arnoud Helmantel in another related post, I'm making enough in a week to make this a risky bet, considering my expenses. Anyhow, you dont know where I live, right? ;) Martin-Gilles Lavoie | "No! Try not. Do, or do not. Mac OS programmer, CS&T | There is no try." lavoie@cst.ca | -- Yoda on error handling From k97jm01 at cc.kzoo.edu Tue May 5 10:11:53 1998 From: k97jm01 at cc.kzoo.edu (Joshua 'Tool User' Marker) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet Message-ID: <199805051509.LAA28611@henson.cc.kzoo.edu> On 5/5/98 12:15 AM, Ziya Oz said: >Are you *really* saying that IF Microsoft wanted to know about Rhapsody, >they'd resort to reading about it on RhapNet? I talked to a project manager who handles the TCP stack for NT at Microsoft, and he did a marvellous job of feigning ignorance about Rhapsody if he was lying about never having heard of it. The attitude I read was that of complete indifference. Joshua --- "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." Thomas Jefferson From jknight at MIT.EDU Tue May 5 08:13:48 1998 From: jknight at MIT.EDU (James Knight) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >With all that Y2K shit comming in on the Win platforms, the timing couldn't >be better for Apple to make a big entrance both in the server market and in >the high-end market. Hm, does Rhapsody have the 2036 (?) problem like practically every other computer? Or is that just way too far off? :P -James From scott at cacti.org Tue May 5 10:12:07 1998 From: scott at cacti.org (Scott Stevenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet Message-ID: <199805051702.KAA16853@proxy3.ba.best.com> >>On the other hand, the longer the competition sleeps, the better. The >>longer Microsoft, Sun, Novell, HP, SCO, SGI, Digital, and even Be >>remain cocky, ignorant, and complacent, the better. > >Are you *really* saying that IF Microsoft wanted to know about Rhapsody, >they'd resort to reading about it on RhapNet? I'm convinced Microsoft has a team of, oh, a dozen people that surf the web all day for stories about Microsoft and their competition. - Scott ------ Scott Stevenson scott@cacti.org http://www.cacti.org <-- Macintosh & Rhapsody Resources From gfair at uniserve.com Tue May 5 02:17:55 1998 From: gfair at uniserve.com (Graham Fair) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Mach Kernel Message-ID: While reading background material on Rhapsody, several articles mention the Mach kernel in various incarnations. After going to the OSF website, I found that Mach is now in version 8.x and is now a "real-time" kernel. What has been improved in Mach kernels since the first kernel was introduced? What is a "real-time kernel" and what would be the difference between it and a non-realtime kernel? Does anyone have estimates of Rhapsody's US list price in consumer release 1 form? GF>>1. Does Apple realise the importance of making Yellow Box available for all GF>>major commercial flavours of Unix? SS>This would be nice, but really outside of Solaris and maybe Linux these SS>would be a whole lot of trouble merely for the sake of a check mark. A check mark? I don't mean Apple developing YB so it can increase its effective user base directly through people using YB apps on multi-hundred thousand dollar Unix mainframes, I mean Apple should develop YB for these OSes (HP-UX, Irix, Solaris, AIX) to increase the potential market for developers of these platforms. Imagine if Apple approached a company developing applications for IBM RS/6000 machines (in other words a company with a user base of 0.0000000001% of the computer industry) and told them that Apple was developing a technology for RS/6000 machines that would allow this company to have a target market of 99% of the computer industry instead. I would like to see Apple develop YB for these platforms because I'm sure there are a number of long-time developers for these platforms (with vast expertise in these computer systems) that would love to increase their target market and would willingly throw resources Apple's way speeding the time and cutting the cost of development of YB for these platforms. And if its check marks you're talking about, then it would be one more check mark to convince software developers to make Rhapsody their development platform of choice thus ensuring the long life/success of Rhapsody. After all, for all the developments in hardware, software is still the determining factor in whether people will adopt a platform or not....look at the Quicken/Apple scare. SS>1) Apple ships CR1 to largely positive reviews. SS>2) Microsoft ships NT5, to ecstatic (largely bought and paid for) industry SS>huzzahs - every operating system alternative is declared DOA. SS>3) Apple has a down quarter at some point and panics into selling out to SS>(pick your favorite suitor). Are people not becoming aware of WindowsNT's instability and shying away from it? Which platform has more potential to develop workgroup and/or enterprise applications which run on a stable operating system, take very little time to develop and save large amounts of development resources: Windows NT or Rhapsody? Graham Fair From devdrvr at slip.net Tue May 5 11:23:59 1998 From: devdrvr at slip.net (Perry Gregg) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Mac ftp ? Message-ID: To ftp a file from the Macintosh to a Rhapsody box what do I need to run (on the Mac) so the Mac responds like an ftp server to requests? Is there something simple to turn on that comes with the OS so the Mac will do this? Thanks, --Perry From don at misckit.com Tue May 5 10:11:59 1998 From: don at misckit.com (Donald A. Yacktman) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9805051711.AA12676@misckit.com> On Tue, 5 May 1998, Arnoud Helmantel wrote: > They probably could, but what would they gain? If Apple would sue > MacNN/RhapNet, I think it would be rather bad PR... Remember when Apple > tried to Apple was pushing against MacinTouch, and they simply published > Apple's threatening letters, resulting in a lot of bad press against > Apple... Publishing the letters like that was unprofessional and in poor taste. That is reason enough alone to despise Ric Ford... Moreover, after reading the letters themselves, I felt that what Apple said and requested was perfectly reasonable, and not really very threatening at all. It was a reasonably polite request, in fact. It left me with the impression that Ric was the party being petulantly unreasonable, making a mountain out of a moehill. So I'd say that's a second reason why it was a dumb move on Ric's part. The fact that I've witnessed him being an unreasonable, humorless knee-jerk previously doesn't help any, either, I suppose... Anyway, if MacNN/RhapNet pulled the same stunt, then I'd lose any remaining shreds of respect for them that I retain. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page From don at misckit.com Tue May 5 10:12:00 1998 From: don at misckit.com (Donald A. Yacktman) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Rhapsody and Y2K (was Re: DR2 review on Rhapnet) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9805051711.AA12677@misckit.com> On Tue, 5 May 1998, James Knight wrote: > >With all that Y2K shit comming in on the Win platforms, the timing > >couldn't be better for Apple to make a big entrance both in the server > >market and in the high-end market. > Hm, does Rhapsody have the 2036 (?) problem like practically every other > computer? Or is that just way too far off? :P Well, if you look at OPENSTEP 4.2, you have a UNIX that has this problem, BUT the NSDate class in the Foundation Kit does NOT have the problem. (And there are some release notes discussing what is and isn't Y2K compliant; appended after my .sig.) We know that the UNIX under Rhapsody is not the OS4.2 BSD 4.3, but rather BSD 4.4 with whatever modifications Apple has made. So, based upon public information, you can speculate a little bit. The answer is that the BSD layer may have the problem, unless Apple fixed it, but that Rhapsody applications, since they will tend to use NSDate (well, they're SUPPOSED to be using it) should not have a problem themselves. (Which is a moot point if the underlying UNIX has a problem...) Sorry to be so vague, but those with Rhapsody can get the real answer pretty quickly. And there's an NDA to respect...which I DO respect...so I'm not telling. :-P -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page Here's more than you ever wanted to know about Y2K and NSDate objects. (From /NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/ReleaseNotes/Foundation.rtf on my OPENSTEP 4.2 system.) NSDates and the Year 2000 Dates are represented in Foundation with NSDate (and NSCalendarDate) objects and NSTimeInterval values. An NSTimeInterval is essentially a C-language double. NSDates (and NSCalendarDates) store the date that they represent with an NSTimeInterval, which represents the time delta, in seconds, from the Foundation reference date, 00:00:00 1 January 2001 GMT. This time delta is negative until the reference date. There is no special significance to the year 2000 to NSDate objects or NSTimeInterval values. However, refer to the topic Risks in Parsing and Displaying Dates in this section for more information on issues in date presentation and the year 2000. Since the internal time representation will transition across zero (at the reference date) at some point in the future, unlike some other schemes which set the epoch to a date "always" in the past, there will be a brief instant, on the order of microseconds in length, in which an NSDate object created to represent the current time will have an NSTimeInterval of 0.0. The length of this instant is dependent on the resolution of the system time provided by the particular operating system and platform an application is running on. An NSTimeInterval of 0.0 has no special significance to NSDate or NSCalendarDate, but applications which use the NSTimeInterval of a date object in division should protect against division by zero. Such applications are vanishingly rare. More common might be to have an NSTimeInterval which represents the delta between two arbitrary date objects (such as when timing events), and applications should take appropriate caution in using such values (this is always a good idea apart from date usage). Risks in Parsing and Displaying Dates As with any communication between a program and a user, there can be miscommunication in showing dates to the user and reading dates the user types in. When a user types a date into a text field in an application they may intend one thing, and the program may interpret the date as something else. When a date is displayed to a user, the user may interpret the date incorrectly. While an application cannot control the user, there are certain things that an application can avoid doing, with respect to dates, to reduce the potential for confusion and ambiguity and data corruption. * Avoid two-digit years and all uses of the "%y" date format specifier. * Do not use natural language date parsing. * Avoid time zone abbreviations. Each of these points is explained in greater detail below. Whenever it is important (or critical) that the user get accurate information from the application, or the application get accurate information from the user, an application should avoid the ambiguous behaviors below and require strict conformance to a fully specified input format (for user input) and provide an equally verbose output description of dates. Alternatively an application could ask for confirmation of input dates, but this seems to be rather more heavyweight. Avoid two-digit years and all uses of the "%y" date format specifier. Per POSIX and ANSI C (refer to section 7.12, ANSI/ISO 9899-1990 for ANSI C definitions), a two-digit year YY means 1900 + YY. The Foundation follows the lead of ANSI C here. Thus, when a user types "5/10/02" in to a text field with a date formatter with format "%d/%m/%y", a date of 5 October 1902 is successfully created. If the user meant 5 October 2002, they haven't entered that. Since %y means "two-digit year" it is not possible for the user to type anything that will get them a date in the year 2002 (for example, if the user types "5/10/2002" in this example, a date of 5 October 1920 will be successfully parsed). The date parsing routines parse at most two-digits for %y, in order to support dates formatted like "980409" (also not a good idea). Conversely, a user has no way of knowing whether "28/10/33" refers to 1933 or 2033 if they see that displayed on the screen or in printed output. If a program uses "%Y" in the format string instead, this problem is avoided. Do not use natural language date parsing. The natural language parser is pretty sophisticated, but it is after all just sophisticated guessing. The natural language parser is also usually successful at creating a date from input, as long as the input is moderately close to something that looks like a date. However, as with the previous problem, this may not be the date the user intended. Relatedly, don't enable natural language parsing for date formatters. If it is enabled, and the user's input does not match the date formatter's format, the input string is given to the natural language parser. Here is an example where the natural language parser may fail to parse the date the user intended: suppose the date formatter has a format "%d/%m/%Y" and the user types in "5-10-2002". This does not match the format (which has slashes), so the date formatter gives the input to the natural language parser. Now, what the "5" means and what the "10" means is ambiguous-it could equally be month-day-year or day-month-year. The natural language parser prefers a particular ordering, given by the NSDateTimeOrdering preference. If the user's preferred language is French, this is DMYH (denoting an ordering: day month year hour). The built-in default, if the user has no preferred language, is MDYH (denoting an ordering: month day year hour). NSDateTimeOrdering could also be set explicitly to something else by the user. If the user's preferred language is French, the date will be "correctly" parsed as 5 October 2002. By default it will be parsed as 10 May 2002. In general, an application writer can't know a priori what the preferences of the user will be. If natural language parsing is desired, this and other issues (such as use of 12- or 24-hour hour designations) should be taken into account and dealt with by the application. Avoid time zone abbreviations. Time zone abbreviations are inherently ambiguous. Many time zones around the world map to the same abbreviations, by local convention, and there is usually very little information in the abbreviations (most are of acronyms of a phrase such as "Something Standard Time" or "Something Daylight Time", where the Something is the only differentiator). A time of 11:00 CST means something different to a person in New York, New York, U.S.A. (indicating time in Chicago) than someone in Sydney, Australia (indicating time in Darwin) (that hour by itself is also ambiguous-is it ante meridiem or post meridiem?). Use of time zone names of the form GMT+hhmm and GMT-hhmm (as in GMT+0100) can also be problematic, since the user cannot know what which convention (simple offset, or the POSIX minutes-west) is being used. Thus, GMT+0200 can indicate either Helsinki or the mid-Atlantic. From kent at voicenet.com Tue May 5 10:52:05 1998 From: kent at voicenet.com (Ken Townshend) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet Message-ID: <199805051751.KAA15061@ignem.omnigroup.com> >> They probably could, but what would they gain? If Apple would sue >> MacNN/RhapNet, I think it would be rather bad PR... Remember when Apple >> tried to Apple was pushing against MacinTouch, and they simply published >> Apple's threatening letters, resulting in a lot of bad press against >> Apple... > >Publishing the letters like that was unprofessional and in poor taste. >That >is reason enough alone to despise Ric Ford... Yeah, and as a long time Mac user and Mac Addict, I do dispise Ric Ford also. Hes so into his own universe, anyone with an opposing opinion is looked down on. In other words, if Ric and I see eye to eye then were allies, if we don't the opposing opinion (ie ME) is a bozo. From paul at denalisites.com Tue May 5 11:05:33 1998 From: paul at denalisites.com (Paul Holman) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Mac ftp ? Message-ID: <19980505180648342.AAA379.360@[206.149.69.113]> >To ftp a file from the Macintosh to a Rhapsody box what do I need to run >(on the Mac) so the Mac responds like an ftp server to requests? Is there >something simple to turn on that comes with the OS so the Mac will do >this? Get Rumpus from , a suave little FTP server for the Mac. I think they have a 30 day demo. pablos. ---------------------------------------------- Paul Holman pablos@denalisites.com www.denalisites.com (907)265-4896 Electronic Commerce Solutions for Planet Earth From izumi at pinoko.berkeley.edu Tue May 5 11:12:15 1998 From: izumi at pinoko.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Rhapsody and Y2K (was Re: DR2 review on Rhapnet) In-Reply-To: <9805051711.AA12677@misckit.com> References: <9805051711.AA12677@misckit.com> Message-ID: <199805051812.LAA10529@moica.berkeley.edu> Rhapsody DR1 developer documentation is publicly available on Apple's web site. The page regarding the year 2000 problem is at: http://devworld.apple.com/techpubs/rhapsody/NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/ReleaseNotes/Year2000.html I presume we can talk about anything based on the info available from this unrestricted web site. The info there is perhaps slightly more up-to-date than the OS4.2 info. On Tue, 5 May 1998, Donald A. Yacktman" wrote: > On Tue, 5 May 1998, James Knight wrote: > > >With all that Y2K shit comming in on the Win platforms, the timing > > >couldn't be better for Apple to make a big entrance both in the server > > >market and in the high-end market. > > Hm, does Rhapsody have the 2036 (?) problem like practically every other > > computer? Or is that just way too far off? :P > > Well, if you look at OPENSTEP 4.2, you have a UNIX that has this problem, > BUT the NSDate class in the Foundation Kit does NOT have the problem. (And > there are some release notes discussing what is and isn't Y2K compliant; > appended after my .sig.) We know that the UNIX under Rhapsody is not the > OS4.2 BSD 4.3, but rather BSD 4.4 with whatever modifications Apple has made. > So, based upon public information, you can speculate a little bit. > > Here's more than you ever wanted to know about Y2K and NSDate objects. > (From /NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/ReleaseNotes/Foundation.rtf on my > OPENSTEP 4.2 system.) From lavoie at cst.ca Tue May 5 11:12:35 1998 From: lavoie at cst.ca (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Mac ftp ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:23 -0700 5/5/1998, Perry Gregg wrote: >To ftp a file from the Macintosh to a Rhapsody box what do I need to run >(on the Mac) so the Mac responds like an ftp server to requests? Is there >something simple to turn on that comes with the OS so the Mac will do >this? > >Thanks, >--Perry On the Mac side, you can use NCSA Telnet--a shareware telnet application wich also has FTP serving capabilities. Martin-Gilles Lavoie | "No! Try not. Do, or do not. Mac OS programmer, CS&T | There is no try." lavoie@cst.ca | -- Yoda on error handling From stefan.huy at stud.uni-hannover.de Tue May 5 11:22:58 1998 From: stefan.huy at stud.uni-hannover.de (Stefan Huy) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Mac ftp ? Message-ID: <199805051822.UAA14092@studserv.stud.uni-hannover.de> >To ftp a file from the Macintosh to a Rhapsody box what do I need to run >(on the Mac) so the Mac responds like an ftp server to requests? Is there >something simple to turn on that comes with the OS so the Mac will do >this? Not with the OS, but with Telnet. BetterTelnet and its ancessor NCSA-Telnet allow you to run a simple ftp server. The easiest 2-computers-solution, I guess. cu -Stefan __Stefan Huy___________________________________________________________ ____ ______ mailto:huy@stud.uni-hannover.de ________ http://www.stud.uni-hannover.de/~huy ______________________________________________________________________ From eugene at neosoft.com Tue May 5 12:13:16 1998 From: eugene at neosoft.com (Eugene Lee) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Mach Kernel In-Reply-To: from Graham Fair at "May 5, 98 10:23:05 am" Message-ID: <199805051913.OAA11791@inferno.ops.neosoft.com> Graham Fair said: : :While reading background material on Rhapsody, several articles mention the :Mach kernel in various incarnations. After going to the OSF website, I :found that Mach is now in version 8.x and is now a "real-time" kernel. Do you have some references to this v8 designation? I'm aware of Mach 3, Mach 4, MK++, Real-Time Mach, and a few other derivatives. :What has been improved in Mach kernels since the first kernel was introduced? : :What is a "real-time kernel" and what would be the difference between it :and a non-realtime kernel? There are different definitions of a real-time OS depending on who you talk to. Here is a portion from the comp.realtime FAQ: A real-time system is one in which the correctness of the computations not only depends upon the logical correctness of the computation but also upon the time at which the result is produced. If the timing constraints of the system are not met, system failure is said to have occurred. -- Donald Gillies Simply put, an RTOS is an OS that does its job when it must be done. -- Eugene Lee eugene@neosoft.com From chrisr at cnet.com Tue May 5 12:52:42 1998 From: chrisr at cnet.com (Christopher Rempel) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Mac ftp ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've been using NetPresenz without a hitch -- $10 shareware. In addition to FTP hosting, it also does gopher and WWW. (Though I've never used either.) It's fairly simple to set up and I believe it uses very little memory to run. -Christopher >To ftp a file from the Macintosh to a Rhapsody box what do I need to run >(on the Mac) so the Mac responds like an ftp server to requests? Is there >something simple to turn on that comes with the OS so the Mac will do >this? > >Thanks, >--Perry ________________________________________________________ Christopher Rempel chrisr@cnet.com Associate Technical Designer 415.395.7805 X.4115 CNET: The Computer Network Snap! Online: http://www.snap.com/ SEARCH.COM: http://www.search.com/ From sanguish at digifix.com Tue May 5 12:56:34 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: <199805050857.BAA27733@proxy3.ba.best.com> References: <199805050857.BAA27733@proxy3.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <199805051956.PAA08590@digifix.com> Scott Stevenson wrote: > >This 'Review' was only possible by someone either at Apple, or a selected > >ISV that has decided to violate their confidentiality agreements. > > > >Further, it is WRONG of MacNN and RhapNet to publish something that is > >KNOWN > >to be confidential. Its unethical. > > I really am not that knowledgeable in this area, but couldn't Apple sue > the offending site? I would suppose... although I would think that the majority of their energy would be better put to finding the leak, and ensuring that this story is pulled.. From sanguish at digifix.com Tue May 5 13:01:13 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Why DR2? In-Reply-To: <01bd77f2$eff677a0$013ba8c0@smarts> References: <01bd77f2$eff677a0$013ba8c0@smarts> Message-ID: <199805052001.QAA08646@digifix.com> "Greg Alexander" wrote: > As a person who hasn't used Rhapsody - why would Apple release a DR2? > Unless CR1 is going to be perfection - shouldn't Rhapsody be getting close > to beta? Well, Apple should be aiming for perfection in CR1, don't you think? Anyways.. there is alot that wasn't in DR1, and there is reportedly alot more hardware support in DR2. Right there are two good reasons to have a second release before CR1. Apple has to put out the best possible OS they can to get people interested in Rhapsody. From sanguish at digifix.com Tue May 5 13:05:14 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805052005.QAA08669@digifix.com> James Knight wrote: > >Its quite likely the usual loose lips of the discontented at Apple. > > > >There are folks within Apple that don't want to see Rhapsody succeed > >and will do just about anything to see that happen. > > That's the most ridiculous statement I've heard yet. Just how does that > review help to make Rhapsody not succeed? Did I say it was specific to this review? No. If these folks (those who published, and those who showed it to them) don't honor this NDA, its certainly possible that they are violating confidentiality in more serious manners as well. > If its because it releases vital > info about Rhapsody to competitors, that's BS. If a competitor wants > Rhapsody info, they'll sign up for the Apple Dev Program and get it > themselves! Six days is not going to make much of a difference. (not that > the article said much of anything useful to competitors anyways) > Anyways, I'm not condoning breaking a NDA, but geez, the consequences of > this violation are practically nil for Apple, so I don't see what every > one's getting all upset about. Its not like those changes weren't expected > for DR2...more Mac like and faster... > -James > This actually refers more to the recent thread on the MacOSRumors accounting that DR2 won't have IP for APpleshare in the blue box. That is negative. As far as this review goes. The bottom line is that just because this site didn't happen to do any damage or release anything truly confidential in this particular case, doesn't mean that it hasn't been done. From sanguish at digifix.com Tue May 5 13:08:52 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805052008.QAA08686@digifix.com> James Knight wrote: > >With all that Y2K shit comming in on the Win platforms, the timing > >couldn't be better for Apple to make a big entrance both in the server > >market and in the high-end market. > Hm, does Rhapsody have the 2036 (?) problem like practically every other > computer? Or is that just way too far off? :P The majority of these Y2K issues aren't hardware related, but lousy software that stores only the last two digits instead of all four. Since Rhapsody insulates you from all this through the frameworks, its not as major an issue. Now, whether Apple's hardware is going to suffer from the Y2K bios issues that many PCs have.. thats another story.. From allen at upshot.com Tue May 5 13:34:07 1998 From: allen at upshot.com (Allen Prescott) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Mach Kernel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199805060419.VAA19827@relay6.exodus.net> > Are people not becoming aware of WindowsNT's instability and shying >away from it? Which platform has more potential to develop workgroup and/or >enterprise applications which run on a stable operating system, take very >little time to develop and save large amounts of development resources: >Windows NT or Rhapsody? You'd be surprised how few people realize how unstable Windows NT really is. We are doing a web based application for small businesses and we targeted Windows NT servers. When talking to IS folks this decision was considered a no-brainer. It's really only the developers who are up to their elbows in COM and NT that know the dirty little secrets. Allen From louispel at total.net Tue May 5 14:52:35 1998 From: louispel at total.net (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet Message-ID: <199805052151.RAA18992@wacky.total.net> Scott Stevenson at "scott@cacti.org" said on 05/05/98 05:01 : >>This 'Review' was only possible by someone either at Apple, or a selected >>ISV that has decided to violate their confidentiality agreements. >> >>Further, it is WRONG of MacNN and RhapNet to publish something that is >>KNOWN >>to be confidential. Its unethical. > >I really am not that knowledgeable in this area, but couldn't Apple sue >the offending site? > > - Scott Apple has adopted a new politic of "we won't talk about it until you can buy it". And this also imply that they won't get all the media attention by pursuing rumor sites. A rumor is just a rumor. But when you attack those rumors, it means that they had some truth in them... L. Pelletier. From louispel at total.net Tue May 5 14:55:18 1998 From: louispel at total.net (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Mac ftp ? Message-ID: <199805052154.RAA19767@wacky.total.net> Perry Gregg at "devdrvr@slip.net" said on 05/05/98 13:23 : >To ftp a file from the Macintosh to a Rhapsody box what do I need to run >(on the Mac) so the Mac responds like an ftp server to requests? Is there >something simple to turn on that comes with the OS so the Mac will do >this? > >Thanks, >--Perry > Some others have suggested telnet solutions or commercial ones: I'll point you to NetPresenz, and excellent shareware (or freeware, I don't remember) solution that uses file sharing for user administration... very simple to use, and yet, I would say powerfull... It should be everywhere (Info-Mac, download.com, etc...) Louis Pelletier. From louispel at total.net Tue May 5 14:59:08 1998 From: louispel at total.net (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Why DR2? Message-ID: <199805052158.RAA21051@wacky.total.net> Scott Anguish at "sanguish@digifix.com" said on 05/05/98 16:02 : >> As a person who hasn't used Rhapsody - why would Apple release a DR2? >> Unless CR1 is going to be perfection - shouldn't Rhapsody be getting close >> to beta? > > Well, Apple should be aiming for perfection in CR1, don't you think? > > Anyways.. there is alot that wasn't in DR1, and there is reportedly >alot more hardware support in DR2. Right there are two good reasons to >have >a second release before CR1. > > Apple has to put out the best possible OS they can to get people >interested in Rhapsody. > We should remember that the first commercial release what supposed to be in january (or so). And many times, people from Apple has stated that they weren't late at all in their work. Conclusion: Expect DR2 (or any name it will have) to be in fact a "beta" of CR1. From a dev. view point, it shouldn't change until CR1: people need to make software before the commercial release! >From a user viewpoint... I have no idea... maybe it will be most completed, maybe it won't include any of the final features (to keep the secret), maybe it will be almost completed... we won't know until next week... and even then... L. Pelletier. From louispel at total.net Tue May 5 15:03:23 1998 From: louispel at total.net (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet Message-ID: <199805052202.SAA22576@wacky.total.net> Scott Anguish at "sanguish@digifix.com" said on 05/05/98 16:11 : > > The majority of these Y2K issues aren't hardware related, but lousy >software that stores only the last two digits instead of all four. > > Since Rhapsody insulates you from all this through the frameworks, >its not as major an issue. > > Now, whether Apple's hardware is going to suffer from the Y2K bios >issues that many PCs have.. thats another story.. > > I've read somewhere from an official source that the Mac hardware (back from the 128k) can go to year 30,000 (or something like it). The MacOS is now "softwarely" limited only. The mac stores dates into a 64bits number that sum up seconds. (correct me if my memory fails...). I'm sure a commercial version of unix layers such as BSD won't have any trouble passing the Y2K!! So, Apple will provide (I can't see anything else possible) Rhapsody as a fully Y2K compliant OS... as MacOS always was. L. Pelletier. From rhapsody at willamesd.k12.or.us Tue May 5 15:19:46 1998 From: rhapsody at willamesd.k12.or.us (rhapsody) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Why DR2? In-Reply-To: <199805052158.RAA21051@wacky.total.net> Message-ID: >We should remember that the first commercial release what supposed to be >in january (or so). And many times, people from Apple has stated that >they weren't late at all in their work. > >Conclusion: Expect DR2 (or any name it will have) to be in fact a "beta" >of CR1. From a dev. view point, it shouldn't change until CR1: people >need to make software before the commercial release! > >>From a user viewpoint... I have no idea... maybe it will be most >completed, maybe it won't include any of the final features (to keep the >secret), maybe it will be almost completed... we won't know until next >week... and even then... > >L. Pelletier. actually, cr1 is on schedule as far as anyone knows. rhapsody premiere was originally slated for early '98, but apple changed the planned releases from premiere (early'98) and unified (late'98) to cr1 (mid'98) and cr2 (early'99). however, cr1 is supposed to have features comparable to those of unified, and cr2 is supposed to take rhapsody even further. so, by apple's scheduling they are on time. also, i should remind everyone that apple has not committed to releasing a dr2 of any kind, and that a wwdc release of dr2 is merely a rumor (though it would be suicide for apple not to give developers something great to go home with from wwdc). From galexand at ozemail.com.au Tue May 5 16:18:03 1998 From: galexand at ozemail.com.au (Greg Alexander) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Mach Kernel Message-ID: <01BD78CF.E0386E80@eddiejud> Graham Fair (gfair@uniserve.com) wrote: >GF>>1. Does Apple realise the importance of making Yellow Box available for all >GF>>major commercial flavours of Unix? > >SS>This would be nice, but really outside of Solaris and maybe Linux these >SS>would be a whole lot of trouble merely for the sake of a check mark. > > A check mark? I don't mean Apple developing YB so it can increase >its effective user base directly through people using YB apps on >multi-hundred thousand dollar Unix mainframes, I mean Apple should develop >YB for these OSes (HP-UX, Irix, Solaris, AIX) to increase the potential >market for developers of these platforms. I hadn't thought of it as much from the developer angle. Good point - still develop for your platform, but get the rest of the market too. >From a user perspective having one set of applications for any OS would be attractive ("YB apps on Win95 and our RS/6000s") Others have commented that for now Win95/NT is the key - other platforms come later. That's true - but they better not wait too long. What they miss is those companies thinking 'we have to move to NT'. If they're on VMS now, why would they choose to move to YB and not straight to Win32? There is one more HUGE target - old Intel machines. If Apple could give old machines (386s, 8MB) a VGA Mac GUI and display YB apps remotely they would have a huge potential market. To do that they'd have to run on Dos - use some of what they learned from StarTrek (on Novell DR-Dos, now Caldera DR-Dos/OpenDos). Your old machines would pre-emptively multitask DOS (ala DR-Dos 7) and display YB apps running on a server. Of course then they would on-sell a Rhapsody-PPC server to serve all those machines... not to mention encouraging YB for all those Win95 boxes. Greg Alexander From smckamey at cc.wwu.edu Tue May 5 16:12:20 1998 From: smckamey at cc.wwu.edu (Stephen M. McKamey) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet Message-ID: "Apple looks set to underpromise, and overdeliver." mmalc from http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Editorial/MacWorld_SF_98.html Sorry to quote you to your self, but it seemed fitting to my last post... IMHO, this is the best strategy that Apple could use: ANTI-vaporware, if you will. ___________________________________________________________ Stephen M. McKamey PseudoCode Solutions smckamey@cc.wwu.edu http://www.pseudocode.com _________________________________________________________ From smckamey at cc.wwu.edu Tue May 5 16:07:18 1998 From: smckamey at cc.wwu.edu (Stephen M. McKamey) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: <199805050441.XAA00712@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: >On the other hand, the longer the competition sleeps, the better. The >longer Microsoft, Sun, Novell, HP, SCO, SGI, Digital, and even Be >remain cocky, ignorant, and complacent, the better. It may have been >better if the review had said installation and performance were awful, >and the UI was incomprehensible. However, *if* Rhapsody has come a long way since this "leak", people will be surprised (in a very good way). This article set the base-line for the current status. It also set that base-line as being very low. This may help to counter the effects of everyone waiting for so long and getting their hopes set too high. In the end, the mass public knows that cool stuff is coming. Most people have their hopes of accelerated advancement in technology set too high; this is why the Roswell-top-secret stories are accepted as much as they are. So, *if* this was a proto of the present, then the thunder was actually (IMHO) increased for WWDC. If WYSIWYG, then the thunder was in fact stolen from the WWDC. ___________________________________________________________ Stephen M. McKamey PseudoCode Solutions smckamey@cc.wwu.edu http://www.pseudocode.com _________________________________________________________ From jesse at metamediasys.com Tue May 5 17:56:04 1998 From: jesse at metamediasys.com (Jesse Sng) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Mac ftp ? In-Reply-To: <199805052154.RAA19767@wacky.total.net> Message-ID: >Perry Gregg at "devdrvr@slip.net" said on 05/05/98 13:23 : > >>To ftp a file from the Macintosh to a Rhapsody box what do I need to run >>(on the Mac) so the Mac responds like an ftp server to requests? Is there >>something simple to turn on that comes with the OS so the Mac will do >>this? >> >>Thanks, >>--Perry It's entirely possible just use your Rhapsody machine as the ftp server. After all, it already comes installed with the capabilities. You just need to create a network user to grant access via ftp. Jesse Sng From jesse at metamediasys.com Tue May 5 18:39:26 1998 From: jesse at metamediasys.com (Jesse Sng) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: The Business of Rhapsody In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >So, *if* this was a proto of the present, then the thunder was actually >(IMHO) increased for WWDC. If WYSIWYG, then the thunder was in fact >stolen from the WWDC. Either way, all this waiting is just driving me nuts. True or false, accurate or not, it's a few more days to WWDC and I'm frustrated at having to wait all these months with no news at all - but for the 'consolation' (if you can call it that) of some rumors and hearsay. It's like feeding off the dumpster to get by instead of eating at a table. I just want to know one thing - do I continue working on this, or do I walk away and do something else ? It's no longer something that a single article, review or what have you can soothe. I've seen enough to not have to worry about the specs - but I need to know THE BUSINESS PLAN. In the absence of any plan since last year, coupled with the bad situation that Apple was in (until the recent recovery) - the only realistic thing to do was to look elsewhere (Windows etc) and lots of us have hung on against conventional wisdom and often with little evidence for our 'faith' to go on at all. Things are starting to turn, but how much longer can most of us wait without even an indication of a launch window ? I'm only glad that it's a few more days to go. Even with DR1 (much less the fabled DR2) - I can see that things are shaping up from a technology point of view. I even applaud the OS team for their solid effort. But the question is - what kind changes are we likely to see in the way we conduct our business in the near future ? How will we feed ourselves (be it MacOS or Rhapsody) and pay the rent ? Or if Apple's focus is going to be on the Big 100 developers - perhaps the rest of us should just polish up the resumes and go work for those guys ? I assume that some of us stay small and independent for a very good reason - I hope that there's sufficient reason left for us once the Plan is revealed. That's why while I hear that there is every chance that this year will have an even larger attendance - it's ironic that many are attending to find out if they should stay or get out of the business altogether. The thing here is that it is no longer about whether Rhapsody is going to work, how many processors it will support, whether it sucks less than NT or Solaris. It's not clear now that from a business planning and marketing point of view - whether any of us will have a part in Apple's future success and recovery. I'm perfectly willing to accept that we might all need to take some dumbed-down job so that we can play with this stuff in the evenings and weekends, but tell me now so that we can make plans accordingly. If Intuit doesn't even know about what Apple is planning to do next, I really wonder how much a bigger target are most of us on Apple's 'radar' ? Most of us can't even talk about the stuff, much less demo it and how are we supposed to drum up support for product plans, funding, line up investors, what have you - when we can't even convince them that this is more than just an engineering prototype (you and I know it's not true). Are the rest of us supposed to be in 'stealth' mode - invisible to radar ? What burns me is that even if we know something that others don't (regardless of whether you have DR1, DR2, CR1) - besides building code, we can't act on the information in a meaningful way that will give us a sane approach to building our business. All the trading of information about specs and features is child's play - what about the business model ? I apologise if I ranted - but all the endless discussions aren't helping to make things better. The only party that can an end to everything is Apple and Steve and hopefully he can put everything right next Monday. And I'm promising myself not to say anymore about this matter until I can review the announced plans and judge for myself. I'll shut up now.... and sorry for wasting the bandwidth. Jesse From trmp at sopris.net Tue May 5 19:19:24 1998 From: trmp at sopris.net (David Evenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser Message-ID: <354FC8AC.7E5CC0AF@sopris.net> Check out www.apple.com From trmp at sopris.net Tue May 5 19:28:04 1998 From: trmp at sopris.net (David Evenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser Message-ID: <354FCAB4.95343F46@sopris.net> Check out Apple's site. Even the Store is blacked out. http://www.apple.com/ From ziyaoz at earthlink.net Tue May 5 19:46:55 1998 From: ziyaoz at earthlink.net (Ziya Oz) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: The Business of Rhapsody Message-ID: <199805060233.TAA24519@sweden.it.earthlink.net> On 5/5/98 9:44 PM, Jesse Sng wrote: > It's not clear now that from a business planning and marketing >point of view - whether any of us will have a part in Apple's future >success and recovery. Do you really expect all (or even most) of the questions in your mind will be answered at WWDC? What happens if Apple cannot/won't commit to a fairly specific business plan and wants to stretch out the period of secrecy to, say, Jan '99? One of the downsides of total secrecy is that when you announce to end it, people expect all their questions answered. The depth and breath of decisions they have to make on so many fronts might just be too overwhelming for one company to accomplish at one gathering. Ziya From louispel at total.net Tue May 5 19:35:43 1998 From: louispel at total.net (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Why DR2? Message-ID: <199805060235.WAA15696@wacky.total.net> rhapsody at "rhapsody@willamesd.k12.or.us" said on 05/05/98 18:18 : >also, i should remind everyone that apple has not committed to releasing a >dr2 of any kind, and that a wwdc release of dr2 is merely a rumor (though >it would be suicide for apple not to give developers something great to go >home with from wwdc). True. So how would we call this new release of Rhapsody...? What would you think about... hummm... DR2?? ;o) Apple now have to deliver a complete OS for dev. to work on... they can't do other ways... L. Pelletier From louispel at total.net Tue May 5 19:39:20 1998 From: louispel at total.net (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Mach Kernel Message-ID: <199805060238.WAA21689@bretweir.total.net> Greg Alexander at "galexand@ozemail.com.au" said on 05/05/98 19:24 : >There is one more HUGE target - old Intel machines. If Apple could give old >machines (386s, 8MB) a VGA Mac GUI and display YB apps remotely >they would have a huge potential market. This is really a very interesting point of vue... I had never thought about this... But, what do we expect from NCs? Low-cost, not a very powerfull machine, without HD (or small ones)... this is a 386!... But there is still a big difference, NCs should run apps by themselves... while with a 386, you would need to use the server power... L. Pelletier. From jshomphe at skidmore.edu Tue May 5 19:40:02 1998 From: jshomphe at skidmore.edu (Joseph Shomphe) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser In-Reply-To: <354FCAB4.95343F46@sopris.net> Message-ID: Last time it was the Cookie, shopping cart and the screwdriver...now: Pro. Go. Woah. What could it all mean? --------------------------------- Joseph Shomphe Skidmore College Class of 2000 North Broadway Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 http://www.skidmore.edu/~jshomphe 1-518-581-6292 --------------------------------- On Tue, 5 May 1998, David Evenson wrote: > Check out Apple's site. Even the Store is blacked out. > > http://www.apple.com/ > > From louispel at total.net Tue May 5 19:47:40 1998 From: louispel at total.net (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser Message-ID: <199805060247.WAA23637@bretweir.total.net> David Evenson at "trmp@sopris.net" said on 05/05/98 22:32 : >Check out Apple's site. Even the Store is blacked out. > >http://www.apple.com/ This really means that something big is coming... remember... Apple = no vaporware, they have no interest to sur-estimate what they'll announce... I guess I'll dream another night of Rhapsody and other Apple technologies... ;o) L. Pelletier. From ziyaoz at earthlink.net Tue May 5 20:05:43 1998 From: ziyaoz at earthlink.net (Ziya Oz) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser Message-ID: <199805060252.TAA14068@sweden.it.earthlink.net> On 5/5/98 10:45 PM, Joseph Shomphe wrote: >Pro. Go. Woah. >What could it all mean? Go --> the new PowerBook G3. Ziya From louispel at total.net Tue May 5 20:00:10 1998 From: louispel at total.net (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser Message-ID: <199805060259.WAA08664@pablo.total.net> Ziya Oz at "ziyaoz@earthlink.net" said on 05/05/98 22:54 : >>Pro. Go. Woah. > >>What could it all mean? > >Go --> the new PowerBook G3. > >Ziya And Pro for professionals (video, etc..) And I guess they expect us all to say woah tomorrow... These "rebus" are hard to decipher... ;o) L. Pelletier. From gmcpherson at rmit.edu.au Tue May 5 20:00:12 1998 From: gmcpherson at rmit.edu.au (Greg McPherson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: The Business of Rhapsody In-Reply-To: <199805060233.TAA24519@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: >On 5/5/98 9:44 PM, Jesse Sng wrote: > >> It's not clear now that from a business planning and marketing >>point of view - whether any of us will have a part in Apple's future >>success and recovery. Rhapsody isn't ready for folks to base their businesses on. As you said, Apple has kept very quiet on what it expects it to be used for, what it will provide and so forth. If Apple isn't ready to sell it, then how can you seriously buy it? Our little office has been mulling over our programming future. We've decided that Mac only software isn't the profitable way to go, but neither is pure Windows or UNIX. We've be pondering using either Yellow Box or Java. Right now Java is winning. Why? Yellow Box is still an Apple Technology in development, and Apple has a bad history of keeping their promises with new tech. We got our fingers burned with Newtons, and I'm damn glad I never got time to convert any apps to OpenDoc. Java is available and fairly robust, with cool dev tools, plenty of 3rd party classes, plenty of help in the form of books, magazines, classes, support from big players etc. Greg -------------------------------------------------- Greg McPherson Seismology Research Centre Mac Programmer RMIT - Plenty Road Ph: +61 3 9468 2619 Bundoora, Victoria 3083 Fax:+61 3 9467 6184 Australia gmcpherson@rmit.edu.au seismology.sm.rmit.edu.au From gmcpherson at rmit.edu.au Tue May 5 20:28:27 1998 From: gmcpherson at rmit.edu.au (Greg McPherson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser In-Reply-To: <199805060252.TAA14068@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: >On 5/5/98 10:45 PM, Joseph Shomphe wrote: > >>Pro. Go. Woah. > >>What could it all mean? > >Go --> the new PowerBook G3. > >Ziya Pro --> QuickTime Pro 3.0 + macromedia purchases Woah --> 300Mhz G3. ...but we know that stuff already. I hope it isn't another fizzer of an event. From setzer at backfence.net Tue May 5 14:04:56 1998 From: setzer at backfence.net (Setzer Family) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: CNET and Moto's new PPC Message-ID: Check out http://www.news.com/Investor/NewsItem/0,213,0~3~1~4~AAPL~NEWS~21825~~~~~,00.html ?nc on Motorola's new extensions to the PPC architecture, to be announced at NetWorld+Interop Thursday especially the quote about "In contrast, AltiVec is two new technologies, one hardware, the other software. On the hardware side, it adds a new "execution unit" inside the PowerPC processor that is built to efficiently process certain kinds of data. All mainstream processors already come with execution units call "integer" and "floating point" designed to efficiently process other kinds of data. The new "vector unit" operates concurrently with the existing floating point and integer units found in typical desktop PC processors." Any speculation as to whether this "vector unit" is a vector processor in the Cray sense? Steve Setzer From setzer at backfence.net Tue May 5 14:21:35 1998 From: setzer at backfence.net (Setzer Family) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: CNET and Moto's new PPC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, that last post was not even tangentially related to Rhapsody mea culpa :-) From rtulloch at ozemail.com.au Tue May 5 21:21:59 1998 From: rtulloch at ozemail.com.au (Ross Tulloch) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser Message-ID: <199805060419.OAA25988@fep2.mail.ozemail.net> > >Pro. Go. Woah. > > >What could it all mean? Pro = professionals (professionals need laptops) Go = G3 (its fast!) Woah = Its a G3 PowerBook! or something like that... ;-) Ross. From trmp at sopris.net Tue May 5 21:32:54 1998 From: trmp at sopris.net (David Evenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser References: Message-ID: <354FE7F5.3B9F988F@sopris.net> Greg McPherson wrote: > >On 5/5/98 10:45 PM, Joseph Shomphe wrote: > > > >>Pro. Go. Woah. > > > >>What could it all mean? > > > >Go --> the new PowerBook G3. > > > >Ziya > > Pro --> QuickTime Pro 3.0 + macromedia purchases > Woah --> 300Mhz G3. > > ...but we know that stuff already. > I hope it isn't another fizzer of an event. Indeed. I hope the "Geraldo" reference was simply a gross marketing oversight! ;-) From Paul_Lynch at seer.demon.co.uk Tue May 5 21:58:50 1998 From: Paul_Lynch at seer.demon.co.uk (Paul Lynch) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: The Business of Rhapsody In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9805060459.AA05159@seer.demon.co.uk> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 727 bytes Desc: not available Url : /mailman/archive/macosx-talk/attachments/19980506/87f8c9a0/attachment.bin From jesse at metamediasys.com Tue May 5 22:26:47 1998 From: jesse at metamediasys.com (Jesse Sng) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: The Business of Rhapsody In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greg wrote : >Rhapsody isn't ready for folks to base their businesses on. As you said, >Apple has kept very quiet on what it expects it to be used for, what it >will provide and so forth. If Apple isn't ready to sell it, then how can >you seriously buy it? It's not just a case of whether Apple is ready to sell it - I am sure that will ship soon enough - but can they seriously sell it ? It's an entire mental reorientation for the whole sales and marketing organisation. I don't see enough changes or action in this area - and you can't totally replace that part of the organisation with the Online store (although it's an intriguing idea). Already as developers, we've had to go through an entirely different way of thinking (for the better) just to deal with this - and I can imagine what would happen when we get down to the reps who are going to deal with corporate or educational accounts - or worse - your average CompUSA sales rep. >is pure Windows or UNIX. We've be pondering using either Yellow Box or >Java. Right now Java is winning. >Why? Yellow Box is still an Apple Technology in development, and Apple has >a bad history of keeping their promises with new tech. We got our fingers >burned with Newtons, and I'm damn glad I never got time to convert any apps >to OpenDoc. I see your point and share the pain. Anything that's pure Win32 API or MacOS APIs to me is dead - so it's either Pure Java or YellowBox. Having looked at Java from a number of platforms - even YellowBox/Java seems to be the most sane approach. I shudder to think about attempting to deliver a large complex piece of software using Java/AWT. The reason YB and Rhapsody is winning (in my mind) is that at least delivers on the promise of multi-platform delivery and more importantly - the productivity improvement is something that cannot be ignored. >Java is available and fairly robust, with cool dev tools, plenty of 3rd >party classes, plenty of help in the form of books, magazines, classes, >support from big players etc. Likewise - we can take all those important code segments and integrate into YellowBox Java - so to me there's no loss if we choose YB. In fact, the YB holds out a lot of promise even in the eyes of potential investors as it can be seen as killer technology with very safe assumptions and roots. ------------ Ziya wrote : >Do you really expect all (or even most) of the questions in your mind >will be answered at WWDC? No I don't. But no information at all is even worse - there's no way one can plan at all. I'm not so naive as to assume that Steve will stand there and wave his wand, but we are all partners in this together and keeping us in the loop is important if we are to remain in the fold. >What happens if Apple cannot/won't commit to a fairly specific business >plan and wants to stretch out the period of secrecy to, say, Jan '99? Then I believe a lot of us may move on - simply because it's better to then wait and see. Already the discussion lists should have much more activity, but I suspect that the majority have installed RDR1 and then gone on to other stuff while waiting for more to be revealed. But I think it's fair that if they want us to stay involved, there has to be at least some talk about timeframes - even if isn't a firm shipping schedule. Remember, I wasn't even talking about when it will ship - but rather when will the rest of the business plans come together. This includes how the sales and marketing organisation is going to deal with this, how they are going to work with us on this. >One of the downsides of total secrecy is that when you announce to end >it, people expect all their questions answered. The depth and breath of >decisions they have to make on so many fronts might just be too >overwhelming for one company to accomplish at one gathering. One thing you've hit directly on the head is this - it's too much for a single company to deal with. That's why we have developers and that's the only way in which they are going to win - by partnering up with the key stakeholders (be they developers, the channel, consultants, educators etc) and involving them in the decisions (at least keeping them informed). People feel pissed off when excluded (or perceive to be) and that leads to a very negative situation. Jesse From scott at cacti.org Wed May 6 00:46:56 1998 From: scott at cacti.org (Scott Stevenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser Message-ID: <199805060737.AAA01540@proxy3.ba.best.com> >Pro = professionals (professionals need laptops) >Go = G3 (its fast!) >Woah = Its a G3 PowerBook! New logo? ------ Scott Stevenson scott@cacti.org http://www.cacti.org <-- Macintosh & Rhapsody Resources From scott at cacti.org Wed May 6 00:46:09 1998 From: scott at cacti.org (Scott Stevenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser Message-ID: <199805060736.AAA16731@proxy4.ba.best.com> >...but we know that stuff already. >I hope it isn't another fizzer of an event. It's wasn't a fizzer if you were there. :) It was great to see that G3 toast the Pentium. :) - Scott ------ Scott Stevenson scott@cacti.org http://www.cacti.org <-- Macintosh & Rhapsody Resources From Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk Wed May 6 00:48:47 1998 From: Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk (mmalcolm crawford) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: The Business of Rhapsody In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805060748.IAA02349@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Jesse wrote: > I apologise if I ranted - but all the endless discussions aren't > helping to make things better. > So there you go -- more negative impact from the RhapNet article. > The only party that can an end to everything is Apple > and Steve and hopefully he can put everything right next Monday. > I'm quite sure he will -- it's been plastered in all the advertising about WWDC. That's why I don't understand why everyone's getting so uptight about things -- we're less than a week from the announcements. Why not just sit tight, and continue coding? Best wishes, mmalc. From scott at cacti.org Wed May 6 01:03:00 1998 From: scott at cacti.org (Scott Stevenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Mach Kernel Message-ID: <199805060753.AAA26575@proxy3.ba.best.com> >But, what do we expect from NCs? Low-cost, not a very powerfull machine, >without HD (or small ones)... this is a 386!... But there is still a big >difference, NCs should run apps by themselves... while with a 386, you >would need to use the server power... I wouldn't want to be at the tech support end of 386 no-name clones. - Scott ------ Scott Stevenson scott@cacti.org http://www.cacti.org <-- Macintosh & Rhapsody Resources From Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk Wed May 6 00:56:57 1998 From: Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk (mmalcolm crawford) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser In-Reply-To: <199805060736.AAA16731@proxy4.ba.best.com> References: <199805060736.AAA16731@proxy4.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <199805060757.IAA02356@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Someone wrote: > >...but we know that stuff already. > >I hope it isn't another fizzer of an event. > And the relevance to Rhapsody? mmalc. From jkg4 at duke.edu Wed May 6 01:07:46 1998 From: jkg4 at duke.edu (Jimmy K. Grewal) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: April/May Developer Mailling Message-ID: There was no mention of Rhapsody in the list of items included in the April/May developer mailling. Strange. Perhaps they plan a seperate mailling for other products that have no yet been announced; but I look forward to my visit to the WWDC to discuss a lot of the issues that have been brought up on the list in the past few weeks. I think we should hold off on discussion of products like Rhapsody DR2 and Apple's OS plans until next week. Perhaps we will get a better understanding of what to expect at WWDC from tomorrows press conference from Cupertino. Jimmy. ********************************************************* * Director of Undergraduate Computing * * Duke University Student Government * * * * Jimmy K. Grewal tel. 1-919-613-3046 * * PO Box 94051 fax. 1-919-684-3200 * * Durham, NC 27708 e-mail: j.grewal@duke.edu * * U.S.A. http://www.duke.edu/~jkg4 * ********************************************************* From Lionel.Costa at socgen.com Wed May 6 01:34:53 1998 From: Lionel.Costa at socgen.com (Lionel COSTA) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Why DR2? Message-ID: <07193355020AD049*/c=FR/admd=ATLAS/prmd=SG/o=INFI/s=COSTA/g=LIONEL/@MHS> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 910 bytes Desc: not available Url : /mailman/archive/macosx-talk/attachments/19980506/ab830356/attachment.ksh From sfranko at erols.com Wed May 6 04:07:07 1998 From: sfranko at erols.com (J. Scott Franko) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser Message-ID: <199805061108.HAA18850@smtp3.erols.com> Has anyone seen the new powerbook g3 foldout poster advertisement? I got one in Red Herring magazine. It shows the new PB G3 14.1 inch screen actual size with the poster fold at the hinge of the powerbook. Its huge! This must be a big part of the announcement. It has a white apple logo on the cover. I hope they are not considering a change to this logo across the board. Scott From aae460 at agora.ulaval.ca Wed May 6 06:12:01 1998 From: aae460 at agora.ulaval.ca (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser In-Reply-To: <199805060737.AAA01540@proxy3.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <199805061312.JAA03440@hermes.ulaval.ca> At 00:39 06/05/98 -0700, Scott Stevenson wrote: >>Pro = professionals (professionals need laptops) >>Go = G3 (its fast!) >>Woah = Its a G3 PowerBook! > >New logo? What do you want? The Apple logo on a black cube? ;o) I agree it could be cool... L. Pelletier. From paudet at adrenaline.ca Wed May 6 07:19:56 1998 From: paudet at adrenaline.ca (Patrice Audet) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: WWDC Session on the Net? Message-ID: <199805061317.GAA04977@ignem.omnigroup.com> Hello all, There seem to be lots of Rhapsody session this year at the WWDC (and for the first time, I'm on a T1...). So, do you know if there are RealVideo (or other "standard") site that will broadcast the sessions? I search the web, but without success... Anyone? Thanks! ____________________________________________________ Patrice Audet < paudet@adrenaline.ca > Software Wizard & Apprentice Sorcerer Adrenaline Software, Inc. http://www.adrenaline.ca/ Corel Corporation, Inc. http://www.corel.com/ ____________________________________________________ From lavoie at cst.ca Wed May 6 06:22:36 1998 From: lavoie at cst.ca (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser In-Reply-To: <199805061312.JAA03440@hermes.ulaval.ca> Message-ID: At 6:13 -0700 5/6/1998, Louis Pelletier wrote: >At 00:39 06/05/98 -0700, Scott Stevenson wrote: >>>Pro = professionals (professionals need laptops) >>>Go = G3 (its fast!) >>>Woah = Its a G3 PowerBook! >> >>New logo? > >What do you want? The Apple logo on a black cube? ;o) > >I agree it could be cool... > >L. Pelletier. Alot of people, since the merger, have wanted Apple to acknowlege the NeXT community with at least a back tip on the Apple logo. The color green is the only color used for two elements in the Apple logo (top stripe and the "tail" tip--whatever you cann it in english). I too was in favor of this. Now, let's see if Apple recognises it's new identity... Martin-Gilles Lavoie | "No! Try not. Do, or do not. Mac OS programmer, CS&T | There is no try." lavoie@cst.ca | -- Yoda on error handling From fabienr at ncmi.com Wed May 6 06:23:40 1998 From: fabienr at ncmi.com (Fabien Roy) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser In-Reply-To: <199805061312.JAA03440@hermes.ulaval.ca> References: <199805061312.JAA03440@hermes.ulaval.ca> Message-ID: <199805061324.GAA05161@ignem.omnigroup.com> Just for fun I found this on the net: [An attachment was originally included here] --- Fabien L Roy NationsBanc Capital Markets, Inc voice: (704)386-75-76 100 North Tryon Street fax: (704)388-95-64 NC1-007-09-08 Charlotte NC 28255 Beeper: 143-9722 (1-800-946-46-46) or http://www.mobilemedia.com/home/web-page/web-page.htm email: fabienr@ncmi.com (NeXT/Mime) Pager-email 1439722@mobilecomm.net -------------- next part -------------- Skipped content of type multipart/mixed From yves at vlaanderen.net Wed May 6 07:44:30 1998 From: yves at vlaanderen.net (Yves De Muyter) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: WWDC Session on the Net? In-Reply-To: <199805061317.GAA04977@ignem.omnigroup.com> Message-ID: >Hello all, > >There seem to be lots of Rhapsody session this year at the WWDC (and for >the first time, I'm on a T1...). So, do you know if there are RealVideo >(or other "standard") site that will broadcast the sessions? I search the >web, but without success... Anyone? > >Thanks! CNet radio seems to broadcast the thing: http://www.news.com/Radio No video though... Yves > >____________________________________________________ > Patrice Audet < paudet@adrenaline.ca > > Software Wizard & Apprentice Sorcerer > >Adrenaline Software, Inc. http://www.adrenaline.ca/ >Corel Corporation, Inc. http://www.corel.com/ >____________________________________________________ ================================================================================ = yves@sesuadra.org yves@vlaanderen.net From nberch at db.lv Wed May 6 10:27:10 1998 From: nberch at db.lv (Nils Berzins) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: WWDC (off topic...) Message-ID: <199805061427.RAA28794@saulite> Hi, Does anybody know, is there a public list on the web where one can see, who is attending WWDC ? I think, it would be nice to know, who is going to be there (people from this list or rhapsody-dev), so when we see a familiar name on the badge we can say Hi, have some cup of coffee during the break and discuss Rhapsody face to face... If there is no such list, you are welcome to email me a short note and I'll try to compile a list of attendees and post it this Friday afternoon (european time). I'm leaving to SF this Saturday very early in the morning. Best Regards Nils Berzins IT Manager Diena-Bonnier Ltd. From mark.morris at technologist.com Wed May 6 09:09:08 1998 From: mark.morris at technologist.com (Mark Morris) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser References: <199805061324.GAA05161@ignem.omnigroup.com> Message-ID: <35508B23.CB8CDAF3@technologist.com> (Hopefully something in the announcement will relate to Rhapsody so this won't be TOO far off topic! ;-) A little pet peeve of mine (and somebody correct me if I'm off base), but isn't 12 p.m, PST, one hour later than 12 p.m., PDT? GMT-8:00 vs -7:00? It looks sloppy to me when a technology company doesn't recognize things like that.... (Sorry, I know this is probably a personal problem!) Regards, Mark From eugene at neosoft.com Wed May 6 10:36:33 1998 From: eugene at neosoft.com (Eugene Lee) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: <199805052151.RAA18992@wacky.total.net> from Louis Pelletier at "May 5, 98 02:56:24 pm" Message-ID: <199805061736.MAA18082@inferno.ops.neosoft.com> Louis Pelletier said: : :A rumor is just a rumor. But when you attack those rumors, it means that :they had some truth in them... What if a rumor is untrue? What if a rumor is spread with the intent to harm or damage? What if a rumor is reported *as* news? A rumor may be hearsay, but people will believe in hearsay just as firmly as facts. Look at how many IT or MIS people blindly support NT. -- Eugene Lee eugene@neosoft.com From scott at cacti.org Wed May 6 11:46:47 1998 From: scott at cacti.org (Scott Stevenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Just got back from Apple Event... Message-ID: <199805061837.LAA24186@proxy3.ba.best.com> I'm sending all my stuff to Monish at MacNN, so check it out. It will be on cacti.org later as well. No Rhapsody, but plenty of other cool stuff, including one very big announcement -- "iMac". :) - Scott ------ Scott Stevenson scott@cacti.org http://www.cacti.org <-- Macintosh & Rhapsody Resources From Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk Wed May 6 12:02:16 1998 From: Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk (mmalcolm crawford) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Just got back from Apple Event... In-Reply-To: <199805061837.LAA24186@proxy3.ba.best.com> References: <199805061837.LAA24186@proxy3.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <199805061902.UAA02705@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Scott wrote: > I'm sending all my stuff to Monish at MacNN, so check it out. It will be > on cacti.org later as well. No Rhapsody, but plenty of other cool stuff, > including one very big announcement -- "iMac". :) > Key phrase there: "No Rhapsody" -- I think we can be fairly sure Rhapsody will run on these beasties, so please could we not discuss them here. Sorry for being ratty about this, but as has been pointed out on several occasions now, this is a *Rhapsody* list. Best wishes, mmalc. From devdrvr at slip.net Wed May 6 05:32:33 1998 From: devdrvr at slip.net (Perry Gregg) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Re[x]: Mac ftp ? Message-ID: OK, thanks for the responses to my original question. Now I've got BetterTelnet PPC running & connected through our Fast Ethernet card to a G3 running Rhapsody. And yes I've configured Rhapsody with the driver for the 10/100 ZNYX card. My second ftp question is BetterTelnet complains that I do not have the right domain name. When I do a BSD 'domainname' to 'hypotheticalname', nothing seems to make it happy. I can see some activity but then it fails with the domain name complaint. My hostname is 'marvin'. What is the proper way to specify the host & domain in the 'Open Connection' dialog? The two machines are point to point. --Perry ________________________ Subject: Mac ftp ? Sent: 5/5/98 5:26 PM Received: 5/6/98 12:06 PM From: Perry Gregg, devdrvr@slip.net To: Multiple recipients of list, rhapsody-talk@omnigroup.com To ftp a file from the Macintosh to a Rhapsody box what do I need to run (on the Mac) so the Mac responds like an ftp server to requests? Is there something simple to turn on that comes with the OS so the Mac will do this? Thanks, --Perry From scottcs at best.com Wed May 6 12:36:03 1998 From: scottcs at best.com (Scott Stevenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Just got back from Apple Event... In-Reply-To: <199805061902.UAA02705@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> from mmalcolm crawford at "May 6, 98 12:05:08 pm" Message-ID: <199805061936.MAA09679@shell3.ba.best.com> > Key phrase there: "No Rhapsody" -- I think we can be fairly sure Rhapsody > will run on these beasties, so please could we not discuss them here. > > Sorry for being ratty about this, but as has been pointed out on several > occasions now, this is a *Rhapsody* list. Which is why that was all I posted. Everyone was curious, so I satisfied the curiosity - no Rhapsody, new thread. If you want to read more, you know where to go. I think that was appropriate, particuarly since any major Apple annoucement has the possibility of affecting Rhapsody's success. - Scott From paul at denalisites.com Wed May 6 12:57:38 1998 From: paul at denalisites.com (Paul Holman) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Re[x]: Mac ftp ? Message-ID: <19980506195852048.AAA307.387@[206.149.69.113]> Are you going through an Ethernet hub? If not, are you using a crossover cable? You should be able to circumvent your naming problems by just using the IP address instead. pablos. >OK, thanks for the responses to my original question. Now I've got >BetterTelnet PPC running & connected through our Fast Ethernet card to a >G3 running Rhapsody. And yes I've configured Rhapsody with the driver for >the 10/100 ZNYX card. > >My second ftp question is BetterTelnet complains that I do not have the >right domain name. When I do a BSD 'domainname' to 'hypotheticalname', >nothing seems to make it happy. I can see some activity but then it fails >with the domain name complaint. My hostname is 'marvin'. What is the >proper way to specify the host & domain in the 'Open Connection' dialog? >The two machines are point to point. ---------------------------------------------- Paul Holman pablos@denalisites.com www.denalisites.com (907)265-4896 Electronic Commerce Solutions for Planet Earth From peecee at hempseed.com Tue May 5 19:27:54 1998 From: peecee at hempseed.com (Robert Linnemann) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Did anyone miss the APple Event? Message-ID: <199805062020.NAA11653@ignem.omnigroup.com> If anyone missed the Apple Event I taped it and am willing to make tapes for those of you that would like to see it. I skipped class to watch it because it was sooo cool. Later, Robert Linnemann Email me for info From carbo at earthlink.net Wed May 6 13:46:50 1998 From: carbo at earthlink.net (carbo@earthlink.net) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Rhapsody on G3 Powerbooks? Message-ID: Does anybody know if Rhapsody will run on the new G3 Powerbooks? Just curious... - carl From Stephen.A.Cochran at Hitchcock.ORG Wed May 6 13:43:42 1998 From: Stephen.A.Cochran at Hitchcock.ORG (Stephen A. Cochran) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Rhapsody on G3 Powerbooks? Message-ID: <17229113@mailbox1.Hitchcock.ORG> --- You wrote: Does anybody know if Rhapsody will run on the new G3 Powerbooks? Just curious... --- end of quote --- I'm hoping that DR2 wil. From jkg4 at duke.edu Wed May 6 14:04:33 1998 From: jkg4 at duke.edu (Jimmy K. Grewal) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Rhapsody on G3 Powerbooks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We'll find out on Monday at the WWDC. Hope to see some of you there. Jimmy. On Wed, 6 May 1998 carbo@earthlink.net wrote: > Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 13:35:25 -0700 (PDT) > From: carbo@earthlink.net > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Rhapsody on G3 Powerbooks? > > Does anybody know if Rhapsody will run on the new G3 Powerbooks? > Just curious... > > - carl > > > ********************************************************* * Director of Undergraduate Computing * * Duke University Student Government * * * * Jimmy K. Grewal tel. 1-919-613-3046 * * PO Box 94051 fax. 1-919-684-3200 * * Durham, NC 27708 e-mail: j.grewal@duke.edu * * U.S.A. http://www.duke.edu/~jkg4 * ********************************************************* From chad at pengar.com Wed May 6 14:50:29 1998 From: chad at pengar.com (Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises Inc and Shire.Net) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: New England OpenStep / Rhapsody folks needed Message-ID: The place I am at is hiring people and OpenStep/NeXT experience would be very useful. SW Engineers and Technical Writers. We are located in Southern New Hampshire (Amherst/Merrimack) (USA). I do not know if they are moving folks or not (relocation). Doing cool stuff -- innovative Y2K solutions (not rewriting Cobol -- no worries). Please email me ( chad@pengar.com ) or the company, TF Software ( hr@tempusfixit.com ) or fax to 603 673 3339 . Please do not respond to the mailing list. Thanks Chad chad@pengar.com currently @ TF Software --------------------------------------------------------------- Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. Low cost virtual servers. DB integration. Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. *************** Macintosh: It Just Works ****************** --------------------------------------------------------------- From louispel at total.net Wed May 6 17:02:23 1998 From: louispel at total.net (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Re[x]: Mac ftp ? Message-ID: <199805070001.UAA29594@bretweir.total.net> Perry Gregg at "devdrvr@slip.net" said on 06/05/98 15:34 : >OK, thanks for the responses to my original question. Now I've got >BetterTelnet PPC running & connected through our Fast Ethernet card to a >G3 running Rhapsody. And yes I've configured Rhapsody with the driver for >the 10/100 ZNYX card. > >My second ftp question is BetterTelnet complains that I do not have the >right domain name. When I do a BSD 'domainname' to 'hypotheticalname', >nothing seems to make it happy. I can see some activity but then it fails >with the domain name complaint. My hostname is 'marvin'. What is the >proper way to specify the host & domain in the 'Open Connection' dialog? >The two machines are point to point. > >--Perry You should try NetPresenz... I never had any trouble to use it from a PC, a Mac or a Sun. L. Pelletier. From galexand at ozemail.com.au Wed May 6 17:54:15 1998 From: galexand at ozemail.com.au (Greg Alexander) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: YB-Dos (was Re: Mach Kernel) Message-ID: <01bd7952$a8349760$013ba8c0@smarts> I wrote previously about getting YB and Rhapsody into companies by getting it to display apps on 386 machines. Louis Pelletier replied with: >>But, what do we expect from NCs? Low-cost, not a very powerfull machine, >>without HD (or small ones)... this is a 386!... But there is still a big >>difference, NCs should run apps by themselves... while with a 386, you >>would need to use the server power... Scott Stevenson wrote: >I wouldn't want to be at the tech support end of 386 no-name clones. But really there is nothing wrong with 386s. The problem is if you ask them to do too much - which is why I suggested just displaying YB apps. How much ram/hard-disk would be required to display YB apps? The key to a low-end YB-on-386 would be an OS with low Ram requirements, drivers for all the old hardware (incl graphics), and good multi-tasking/threading. The new Dr-Dos has all that (just no YB). Greg Alexander BTW: A real problem would be Y2K compliance. If the PCs stop working then that doesn't help much! Is the date important if they're just displaying YB programs? Maybe for Dos apps they could ignore their internal clocks and just trust the server. From smckamey at cc.wwu.edu Wed May 6 17:16:27 1998 From: smckamey at cc.wwu.edu (Stephen M. McKamey) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: The anticipation of Rhapsody In-Reply-To: Message-ID: jesse@metamediasys.com wrote: >I apologise if I ranted - but all the endless discussions aren't helping to >make things better. The only party that can an end to everything is Apple >and Steve and hopefully he can put everything right next Monday. I don't know about everyone else, but I am really antsy. It is just like waiting for the next Star Wars Trilogy, or my 21st birthday (which is the day after the keynote!). The anticipation builds but without release. We've been hearing about this stuff since the early days of Copland, but for those of us who have to use our money for school instead of developer subscriptions, life is tough. As far as I'm concerned, I'll sign any NDA just to have a better system to run my CS projects on :) What I hope is that Apple's dev progs come out with a educational version sometime soon. If ANYONE hears about THAT, post it immediately. >I'll shut up now.... and sorry for wasting the bandwidth. Anyway, with that off my chest: me, too. ___________________________________________________________ Stephen M. McKamey PseudoCode Solutions smckamey@cc.wwu.edu http://www.pseudocode.com _________________________________________________________ From rtulloch at ozemail.com.au Wed May 6 18:13:18 1998 From: rtulloch at ozemail.com.au (Ross Tulloch) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser Message-ID: <199805070110.LAA16559@fep2.mail.ozemail.net> Martin-Gilles Lavoie wrote: >Alot of people, since the merger, have wanted Apple to acknowlege the NeXT >community with at least a back tip on the Apple logo. The color green is >the only color used for two elements in the Apple logo (top stripe and the >"tail" tip--whatever you cann it in english). I too was in favor of this. Oh, come on....this is a computer company we're talk about here. The past doesn't matter. Its only the future that is important. NeXT isn't the only company Apple has bought technology from. Should Apple change the QuickTime logo because they bought some code from Macromedia? Maybe we should add the Microsoft logo to Apples because they put in $150mil....;-) I don't think so. Ross. From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Wed May 6 18:31:13 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser References: <199805070110.LAA16559@fep2.mail.ozemail.net> Message-ID: <199805070131.UAA00370@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Ross Tulloch wrote: > Martin-Gilles Lavoie wrote: > > >Alot of people, since the merger, have wanted Apple to acknowlege the NeXT > >community with at least a back tip on the Apple logo. The color green is > >the only color used for two elements in the Apple logo (top stripe and the > >"tail" tip--whatever you cann it in english). I too was in favor of this. > > Oh, come on....this is a computer company we're talk about here. The past > doesn't matter. Its only the future that is important. NeXT isn't the > only company Apple has bought technology from. And anyway, it's pretty clear that Jobs has probably forgotten about NeXT, since he's back with his 'first love', as it were. If it were up to Jobs, he probably would have stayed at Apple in the first place and never started NeXT. Luckily for us and Apple, you can't always get what you want. :) - Jon From jkg4 at duke.edu Wed May 6 18:28:40 1998 From: jkg4 at duke.edu (Jimmy K. Grewal) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: The anticipation of Rhapsody In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Apple gave away 150 Developer Program memberships last month to University students/faculty. My University has a site license for the MacOS that also covers "Rhapsody Unified Release" which we have since clarified to be CR1. Furthermore, myself and 49 other students were given scholarships from Apple to attend the WWDC for free next week. The scholarship invited student/faculty pairs from Universities all over the US to attend. Jimmy. On Wed, 6 May 1998, Stephen M. McKamey wrote: > Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 18:12:07 -0700 (PDT) > From: Stephen M. McKamey > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: The anticipation of Rhapsody > > jesse@metamediasys.com wrote: > > >I apologise if I ranted - but all the endless discussions aren't helping to > >make things better. The only party that can an end to everything is Apple > >and Steve and hopefully he can put everything right next Monday. > > I don't know about everyone else, but I am really antsy. It is just like waiting for the next Star Wars Trilogy, or my 21st birthday (which is the day after the keynote!). The anticipation builds but without release. > > We've been hearing about this stuff since the early days of Copland, but for those of us who have to use our money for school instead of developer subscriptions, life is tough. As far as I'm concerned, I'll sign any NDA just to have a better system to run my CS projects on :) > > What I hope is that Apple's dev progs come out with a educational version sometime soon. If ANYONE hears about THAT, post it immediately. > > >I'll shut up now.... and sorry for wasting the bandwidth. > > Anyway, with that off my chest: me, too. > > ___________________________________________________________ > Stephen M. McKamey PseudoCode Solutions > smckamey@cc.wwu.edu http://www.pseudocode.com > _________________________________________________________ > > ********************************************************* * Director of Undergraduate Computing * * Duke University Student Government * * * * Jimmy K. Grewal tel. 1-919-613-3046 * * PO Box 94051 fax. 1-919-684-3200 * * Durham, NC 27708 e-mail: j.grewal@duke.edu * * U.S.A. http://www.duke.edu/~jkg4 * ********************************************************* From stefan.huy at stud.uni-hannover.de Wed May 6 18:57:34 1998 From: stefan.huy at stud.uni-hannover.de (Stefan Huy) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser Message-ID: <199805070156.DAA04731@studserv.stud.uni-hannover.de> >And anyway, it's pretty clear that Jobs has probably forgotten about NeXT, >since he's back with his 'first love', as it were. If it were up to Jobs, >he probably would have stayed at Apple in the first place and never >started NeXT. Luckily for us and Apple, you can't always get what you >want. :) I don't see that Jobs has forgotten about NeXT and all the things he has learned in those years. We wouldn't have the Steve Jobs we have today otherwise. And I think that he's also surprised and excited about how all the puzzle parts of the former years now fit together perfectly. So am I. The YellowBox, AppleScript, QuickTime, great hardware. Independend developments that now together build a large and bright picture. Ah, and finally USB! I began thinking that no one would ever recognize its importance for the Mac. cu -Stefan __Stefan Huy___________________________________________________________ ____ ______ mailto:huy@stud.uni-hannover.de ________ http://www.stud.uni-hannover.de/~huy ______________________________________________________________________ From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Wed May 6 19:11:22 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser References: <199805070156.DAA04483@studserv.stud.uni-hannover.de> Message-ID: <199805070211.VAA00394@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> > >And anyway, it's pretty clear that Jobs has probably forgotten about NeXT, > >since he's back with his 'first love', as it were. If it were up to Jobs, > >he probably would have stayed at Apple in the first place and never > >started NeXT. Luckily for us and Apple, you can't always get what you > >want. :) > > I don't see that Jobs has forgotten about NeXT and all the things he has > learned in those years. I didn't say he'd forgotten what he *learned*. I'm sure he doesn't feel that the years at NeXT were wasted. The point was that he's not clinging to it, and probably isn't sentimental about NeXT. NeXT was good, but it's over, and now he runs Apple. If NeXT had an unhappy ending, he might feel differently. But things turned out *great*. The NeXT technology lives on, and is giving new life to Apple. The result will quite literally be bigger than the sum of its parts. Anyway, this is offtopic. From paranoia at innocent.com Wed May 6 23:03:38 1998 From: paranoia at innocent.com (Terry Brady) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: YB pre-novice database application query Message-ID: <199805070602.QAA02626@smople.thehub.com.au> OK, wierd subject. The company I work for needs a new database system to handle all the usual stuff - contacts, quotations, product, inventory, orders, invoices, purchase orders, service work and so on. It needs to be multi-user, run on a Mac (hey, we're an Apple Reseller!) and be capable of being interfaced to the web. Sure, it's been done many times before - but I can't find a pre-made solution that works the way WE need to work and I know my boss isn't keen on hiring a "professional" programmer to do the job because of the costs (initial as well as ongoing). I know how I want the databases structured, how they relate, what information they are to contain: that's been the easy part so far. Trying to develop a workable implementation using everybody's favourite database - Filemaker - has run into big problems with performance and security, not to mention actually getting it to do some of the things we want it to do. We've just signed up with Apple as a developer so I'm thinking about trying to make use of this EOF thing I've read so little about. But considering that I've not yet seen YB of any variety nor any of the apps that run on it, is it foolish of me to think that writing a custom YB app to interface (via EOF if needed) to a relational database of some description could be accomplished within say 6 weeks? And if it could be done, what tools would be suitable for the database and web applications? Thanks, Terry Brady PS: Whoa! (www.apple.com/imac/) From setzer at backfence.net Wed May 6 16:57:05 1998 From: setzer at backfence.net (Setzer Family) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Open Question to Current Developers Message-ID: Apple asserts that a single code base, with no changes in the code, can be compiled into Yellow apps on Rhap/PPC, Rhap/Intel, Win95, and WinNT (we'll leave the still-hypothetical MacOS YB out of this for now). Is this really true for complex apps? I mean REALLY true? What about for the apps you all are developing? How complex are they, and do you put them on Win32, and can you get to Win32 as effortlessly as the hype? In essence, could you do all your initial development under Rhap, and then "click a checkbox" (or set a different compiler option) to have a working Win32 app? That's the message Apple appears to be giving. I'm thinking apps on the order of complexity of Photoshop, say, or more complex than that. Any responses/experiences appreciated; I'm most interested in apps that will be delivered on both Rhapsody and Win32. Steve Setzer From ziyaoz at earthlink.net Thu May 7 01:22:30 1998 From: ziyaoz at earthlink.net (Ziya Oz) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife Message-ID: <199805070809.BAA08539@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "According to a few co-religionists inhaling deeply within the confines of the Knife's ceremonial sweat lodge, Apple has been communing with its own animal spirits in pursuit of a new vision for Rhapsody, the company's much-ballyhooed industrial-strength OS. While some of the details remain wispy and elusive, the company has reportedly concluded that its head-to-head odds against Windows NT in the server arena are roughly equal to wee singer-composer Paul Williams' chances in a Greco-Roman wrestling competition with the mighty Mr. Gwynn. If he were a betting utensil, the Knife would make book that Apple will use WWDC to steer Rhapsody sharply away from the siren song of the server market." http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mactheknife/index.html Ziya From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Thu May 7 01:18:59 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife References: <199805070809.BAA08539@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <199805070819.DAA02938@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> > If he were > a betting utensil, the Knife would make book that Apple will use WWDC to > steer Rhapsody sharply away from the siren song of the server market." > > http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mactheknife/index.html Apple dodges left, feints right... The opponent's confused, doesn't know where Apple will move next. "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee" From Jyrki.Wahlstedt at tisp.fi Thu May 7 01:30:35 1998 From: Jyrki.Wahlstedt at tisp.fi (Jyrki Wahlstedt) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: RC5 client for Rhapsody/Intel Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980507113035.0093f700@pop.eunet.fi> Hi! Probably most of us are aware (have at least heard) of the RC5 cracking effort. RC5 (64-bit) client is available, I am running it, but it is for PPC systems only. On the project site, http://www.distributed.net/rc5/, one can make a request for a port to systems having no client. I have made a request for a client for Rhapsody/Intel, but that request has not made itself to the vote list even. I happen to have an Intel box in front of me (Rhapsody installed), but I cannot run a Rhapsody RC5 client there, only on NT. What am I writing this for? I wonder, if there were any other persons in a similar situation. Please make a request for Rhapsody/Intel client. I suppose the client has some assembler (machine code) parts in it. Hence the port may not be as straightforward as to build just a fat binary. But for Pentium processors the core code would be quite like for other operating systems on Intel platform. BTW, if my memory serves me right, I think I have seen such a client mentioned somewhere. However, that was an old build, maybe some test piece only. ! ! Jyrki.Wahlstedt@tisp.fi ! Office: Kaisaniemenkatu 1 B 54 phone: +358-424 2211 229 ! 00100 Helsinki ! Home: Perustie 18 B 25 phone: +358-9-241 1704 ! 00330 Helsinki mobile: +358-40-502 0164 (int) ! Finland 040-502 0164 (kotimaa) ! ! Our life is no dream; but it ought to become one, and perhaps will. ! From Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk Thu May 7 03:15:06 1998 From: Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk (mmalcolm crawford) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Open Question to Current Developers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805071015.LAA03015@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Steve wrote: > Apple asserts that a single code base, with no changes in the code, can be > compiled into Yellow apps on Rhap/PPC, Rhap/Intel, Win95, and WinNT (we'll > leave the still-hypothetical MacOS YB out of this for now). > > Is this really true for complex apps? I mean REALLY true? What about for > the apps you all are developing? How complex are they, and do you put them > on Win32, and can you get to Win32 as effortlessly as the hype? > Pretty much, yes, certainly as far as the code goes. With our spreadsheet we have a couple of small problems as there's a fair amount of C++ in there, so there are a few ifdef WIN-s in there. If we stuck just to Obj-C and the YB Frameworks there wouldn't be a problem. Other than that libc.h doesn't exist under NT, o some common c functions won't work (although everything in K&R seems to be there). The main issue is really the interface -- though it's important to note that this does not affect your *code*. The way menus and other UI widgets are arranged may mean that it's worth rearranging things for Windows; furthermore items like pop-up menus occupy different amounts of screenspace, so you have to ensure that all the text will be visible under both UIs. All a bit of a hassle, but easily enough done, and as I said, it doesn't affect your code. > In essence, could you do all your initial development under Rhap, and then > "click a checkbox" (or set a different compiler option) to have a working > Win32 app? > Yes -- except that you have to copy your code to a Windows system and recompile there. > That's the message Apple appears to be giving. > For good reason -- maybe you should believe them this time. > I'm thinking apps on the order of complexity of Photoshop, say, or more > complex than that. > Is Photoshop really that complex? All it's doing is manipulating and displaying bitmaps. Something like Create! is probably more complex in terms of its demands on the system, even though it's a much simpler app in other regards. As far as I remember OmniWeb ported straight off too (Ken?). For those of you interested in this subject and who are attending WWDC, there will be a YB/Windows panel session about this (my boss will be one of the speakers). Best wishes, mmalc. From gtupar at buzz.rz.henkel.de Thu May 7 05:31:43 1998 From: gtupar at buzz.rz.henkel.de (Georg Tuparev) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Open Question to Current Developers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9805071231.AA00943@buzz.henkel.de> We are working on a very large project (ca. 300k lines) and using virtually every OS class (including EOF and WOF) + some PD class libraries (e.g. MiscKit). The only #ifdef WIN_SHIT lines we wrote was to show Wintel waiting cursor. The WOF/EOF-daemons are working on NT,Mach,HP, & SUN. The AppKit based applications on Mach & NT -- georg -- You wrote: > Apple asserts that a single code base, with no changes in the code, can be > compiled into Yellow apps on Rhap/PPC, Rhap/Intel, Win95, and WinNT (we'll > leave the still-hypothetical MacOS YB out of this for now). > > Is this really true for complex apps? I mean REALLY true? What about for > the apps you all are developing? How complex are they, and do you put them > on Win32, and can you get to Win32 as effortlessly as the hype? > > In essence, could you do all your initial development under Rhap, and then > "click a checkbox" (or set a different compiler option) to have a working > Win32 app? That's the message Apple appears to be giving. > > I'm thinking apps on the order of complexity of Photoshop, say, or more > complex than that. > > Any responses/experiences appreciated; I'm most interested in apps that > will be delivered on both Rhapsody and Win32. > > Steve Setzer > > > > > --- ------- Georg Tuparev InterPoint, Ceintuurbaan 198-I 1072 GC Amsterdam, The Netherlands Mobile: +31-655-798196 Hiroshima 45, Tschernobyl 86, Windows 95, Office 97 From ullius at ivt.baum.ethz.ch Thu May 7 05:45:59 1998 From: ullius at ivt.baum.ethz.ch (Markus Ullius) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Open Question to Current Developers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: See http://www.ibk.baum.ethz.ch/staff/An/HorstBatschkus/rhapsody.html for further information. This report is in german but you can see two projects in Rhapsody, OpenStep and OpenStep for NT and Yellow Box . The OpenTrack info is also available in english http://www.ivt.baum.ethz.ch/opentrackE.html If desired I can give further information about porting OpenTrack to other platforms. Markus Ullius ------------------------------------------------------------------ Markus Ullius Institute of Transportation, Traffic, Highway & Railway Engineering (IVT) ETH Hoenggerberg 8092 Zurich Switzerland Fax: +41 1 633 10 57 Phone: +41 1 633 31 05 Direct: +41 1 633 24 15 From lavoie at cst.ca Thu May 7 05:54:07 1998 From: lavoie at cst.ca (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser In-Reply-To: <199805070110.LAA16559@fep2.mail.ozemail.net> Message-ID: At 18:12 -0700 5/6/1998, Ross Tulloch wrote: >Should Apple change the QuickTime logo because they bought some code from >Macromedia? Well, it's not like they replaced QT altogetter. YB/Mach isn't just a simple add-on. It totally replaces the underpinnings of Mac OS, even if Mac OS ends up sitting on top at some point (Blue Box). Heck, a black stripe wouldn't be half as bad as that transluscent green lApple logo they shoved on the iMac design monstruosity. >Maybe we should add the Microsoft logo to Apples because they put in >$150mil....;-) 150M isn't all that much. Prince Alib [insert sillables here] of Soudi Arabia put in as much (if not more) a couple of years ago-- yet, no one mentions this. And, they did get a horse instead of Clarus in the Page Setup dialog box! (Apparently, dogs are not well accepted in arab countries.) Martin-Gilles Lavoie | "No! Try not. Do, or do not. Mac OS programmer, CS&T | There is no try." lavoie@cst.ca | -- Yoda on error handling From setzer at backfence.net Thu May 7 01:21:16 1998 From: setzer at backfence.net (Setzer Family) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Open Question to Current Developers In-Reply-To: <199805071015.LAA03015@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Message-ID: Malcolm sez: >For good reason -- maybe you should believe them this time. I did believe them--and you! :-) What this actually came out of was that I read some rather slanderous comments on cross-platform tools in general in a conference at byte.com--the poster, who had never used Rhapsody, implied that all cross-platform toolkits stink and that nothing good ever comes from Apple anyway. I didn't believe him, but I wanted to have some actual experiences to back up my belief. Thanks much for sharing your experience with Mesa. >Is Photoshop really that complex? All it's doing is manipulating and >displaying bitmaps. I'm not sure. Certainly each "filter" is a different algorithm--some kind of convolution--and the convolution code I've seen in other contexts isn't particularly complex (caveat: I can read C code but do not work as a developer--I'm considering learning Obj-C in my "copious" spare time ;-). Certainly, however, Photoshop consists of a whole bunch of parts--even if an individual part isn't too complex, the entire beast is unwieldy :-) From setzer at backfence.net Thu May 7 01:22:40 1998 From: setzer at backfence.net (Setzer Family) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Open Question to Current Developers In-Reply-To: <9805071231.AA00943@buzz.henkel.de> Message-ID: Thanks Georg--I appreciate the info. Steve From setzer at backfence.net Thu May 7 01:36:29 1998 From: setzer at backfence.net (Setzer Family) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Open Question to Current Developers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks all for your kind responses. Oh, and in a previous message where I typed "the poster, who had never used Rhapsody", that should read "the poster, who had never used OpenStep or Rhapsody" (mental gears slipping) Steve From k97jm01 at cc.kzoo.edu Thu May 7 10:22:14 1998 From: k97jm01 at cc.kzoo.edu (Joshua 'Tool User' Marker) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Open Question to Current Developers Message-ID: <199805071520.LAA16882@henson.cc.kzoo.edu> >>Is Photoshop really that complex? All it's doing is manipulating and >>displaying bitmaps. > >I'm not sure. Certainly each "filter" is a different algorithm--some kind >of convolution--and the convolution code I've seen in other contexts isn't >particularly complex (caveat: I can read C code but do not work as a >developer--I'm considering learning Obj-C in my "copious" spare time ;-). > >Certainly, however, Photoshop consists of a whole bunch of parts--even if >an individual part isn't too complex, the entire beast is unwieldy :-) > To develop, but not use. Photoshop is an amazing tool. Funny - even in the 'hidden' credits )opt-click about box) it says something like 'How hard can it be to change the color of a pixel?" pixel manipulation is easy to do. Unless you want it fast. Don't knock the guys at Adobe; Pshop is phenomenal. Joshua --- "The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by "God" one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity." -Carl Sagan From paul at eisusa.com Thu May 7 08:56:57 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:17 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife In-Reply-To: <199805070809.BAA08539@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 1:11 AM -0700 5/7/98, Ziya Oz wrote: >While some of the >details remain wispy and elusive, the company has reportedly concluded >that its head-to-head odds against Windows NT in the server arena are >roughly equal to wee singer-composer Paul Williams' chances in a >Greco-Roman wrestling competition with the mighty Mr. Gwynn. There is a market for Rhapsody based servers out there. Helios has already announced their OPI solution running on Rhapsody. >If he were >a betting utensil, the Knife would make book that Apple will use WWDC to >steer Rhapsody sharply away from the siren song of the server market." Typical Apple shortsightedness. What else would you expect from a company that still can't deliver a real OS for the Mac after 14 years? They screwed up taligent, they screwed up pink, they screwed up copland, now watch them screw up Rhapsody. Paul Paul Nicholson Electronic Imaging Systems, Inc. TEL 805 532 1068 5148 Commerce Avenue, Unit F FAX 805 532 1065 Moorpark, CA 93021 U.S.A. paul@eisusa.com http://www.eisusa.com From paul at eisusa.com Thu May 7 08:55:30 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife In-Reply-To: <199805070819.DAA02938@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: At 1:20 AM -0700 5/7/98, Jonathan Hendry wrote: >> If he were >> a betting utensil, the Knife would make book that Apple will use WWDC to >> steer Rhapsody sharply away from the siren song of the server market." >> >> http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mactheknife/index.html > >Apple dodges left, feints right... The opponent's confused, doesn't >know where Apple will move next. > >"Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee" Apple's not even in the ring. Apple's confused, doesn't know where Apple will move next. Paul From dcamp at digimarc.com Thu May 7 09:11:02 1998 From: dcamp at digimarc.com (Dave Camp) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife Message-ID: <16090841851221@digimarc.com> >>If he were >>a betting utensil, the Knife would make book that Apple will use WWDC to >>steer Rhapsody sharply away from the siren song of the server market." > >Typical Apple shortsightedness. What else would you expect from a company >that still can't deliver a real OS for the Mac after 14 years? They screwed >up taligent, they screwed up pink, they screwed up copland, now watch them >screw up Rhapsody. There you go again, taking another rumor column as if it's the gospel. When will people learn... :-( Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Camp | | Software Engineer | | EMail: dcamp@digimarc.com Digimarc, Inc. | | Web: www.digimarc.com "All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand..." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Thu May 7 09:11:24 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife References: Message-ID: <199805071611.LAA00373@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> > At 1:20 AM -0700 5/7/98, Jonathan Hendry wrote: > >> If he were > >> a betting utensil, the Knife would make book that Apple will use WWDC to > >> steer Rhapsody sharply away from the siren song of the server market." > >> > >> http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mactheknife/index.html > > > >Apple dodges left, feints right... The opponent's confused, doesn't > >know where Apple will move next. > > > >"Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee" > > Apple's not even in the ring. Apple's confused, doesn't know where Apple > will move next. That's what they want people to think. Until Monday. What *better* way to throw off the competition, than to act as if Rhapsody will be 'just a server', thus apparently consigning it to an unremarkable existence as a sideline product? - Jon From Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk Thu May 7 09:13:34 1998 From: Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk (mmalcolm crawford) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805071613.RAA03331@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Paul blathered: > They screwed up taligent, they screwed up pink, they screwed up copland, > now watch them screw up Rhapsody. > Let's just wait and see, shall we. mmalc. From luomat+Lists/NeXT/Rhapsody-Talk at luomat.peak.org Thu May 7 09:23:28 1998 From: luomat+Lists/NeXT/Rhapsody-Talk at luomat.peak.org (Timothy J Luoma) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife In-Reply-To: <16090841851221@digimarc.com> References: <16090841851221@digimarc.com> Message-ID: <199805071623.MAA06617@luomat.peak.org> Hasn't MTK had a chronic death knell for Rhapsody in one form or another almost since the day of the Apple/NeXT deal? I suppose they have to fill their pages with something..... and what good is a rumour mill without a good fiery `the sky is falling, the earth is crumbling, life as we know it is ending'? Certainly readership would go down if they said `You know, Apple really hasn't said what their plans are, so here are some wildass guesses with no basis in reality that might happen one of these days' Just a thought... TjL From jesse at metamediasys.com Thu May 7 09:23:55 1998 From: jesse at metamediasys.com (Jesse Sng) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Open Question to Current Developers In-Reply-To: <199805071015.LAA03015@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Message-ID: I'd say it's pretty much portable in nearly all cases. The only ifdefs are for networking code. I'd imagine it'll be worse once we add MacOS. That's why I'm looking forward to using Java to iron out those differences (Winsock, BSD sockets, OpenTransport) between OSes. Also, I've just been bitten by the endian problem - something that I forgot to check when it comes to networking code. Maybe if you're doing things like raw binary memory transfers - those things might require OS specific code or calls. Jesse Sng From wchin at acm.org Thu May 7 09:25:00 1998 From: wchin at acm.org (Bill Chin) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Open Question to Current Developers In-Reply-To: <199805071520.LAA16882@henson.cc.kzoo.edu> References: <199805071520.LAA16882@henson.cc.kzoo.edu> Message-ID: <199805071625.MAA00393@nikita.richmond.net> "Joshua 'Tool User' Marker" wrote: > >>Is Photoshop really that complex? All it's doing is manipulating and > >>displaying bitmaps. > pixel manipulation is easy to do. Unless you want it fast. Don't > knock the guys at Adobe; Pshop is phenomenal. I don't think anyone is doubting the difficulty of writing and maintaining a program like Photoshop. I am sure the internal algorithms it uses for image manipulation are phenomenal. The amount of workarounds and operating system level patching to work across a variety of (old) platforms is probably very complex. However, many image manipulation programs would probably only exercise a limited subset of the Yellow Box API's. Therefore, in comparing the ease of porting between different platforms, the point was that Photoshop may not be a candidate that would stretch the limits of cross platform tools in regards to coverage of functionality. If we were talking about low or medium level image manipulation programs, then I would agree. However, in thinking about what it would take to implement TIFFany 2's client/server functionality and possible future integration with QuickTime, I think that higher end image manipulation programs may fully exercise the Yellow Box API's. The only thing left out is EOF, and even that might find a limited way in for enterprise customers. Back to the original question: Yes, it's possible to write very complex applications within one Yellow Box implementation, tweak the UI, and recompile with little or no changes in another implementation. This works even across different processor architectures, endianness, and underlying operating systems. Are there caveats? Of course. While the Yellow Box API's are very broad, there are certainly things that fall outside of their coverage. The current Yellow Box API's reflect their OPENSTEP origins which targeted the needs of enterprise business applications. What's not in OPENSTEP the standard? Things that come to mind include specific support for various input devices (joysticks, tablets, etc.), user level SCSI device support (for scanners), sound (yes!), 3D graphics (including hardware acceleration), socket level networking, and so on. OPENSTEP the operating system covered many of these by inheriting the functionality from NEXTSTEP and it's BSD UNIX layer. However, these things are not part of the OPENSTEP standard and access to these functions requires platform specific code. This probably why Apple felt it necessary to extend and rename the APIs to Yellow Box. For example, integrating QuickTime into the Yellow Box will solve several of the above. Areas where the Yellow Box does not cover can be handled in future releases and with 3rd party objects. Look at OmniGroup's object frameworks for networking or the MiscKit for examples. With true dynamic binding and dynamically loaded object libraries, it is possible for a marketplace of objects without releasing source code. Some people actually want to get paid for their work. Of course, one could also sell/give away the source. Next week I'm sure we'll find out some more details about where Apple is taking the Yellow Box API's. Finally, developers must (should?) still test their code in each platform - this is a significant cost, but usually not unbearably so. It is easy to revert to C programming habits that compromise the ability to work across different endianness and of course, there could be bugs specific to a Yellow Box implementation and/or underlying platform. --- Bill Chin - wchin at acm dot org - NeXTmail/MIME welcomed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3645 bytes Desc: not available Url : /mailman/archive/macosx-talk/attachments/19980507/c18da62b/attachment.bin From paul at eisusa.com Thu May 7 09:29:34 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife In-Reply-To: <199805071611.LAA00373@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> References: Message-ID: Jon, >What *better* way to throw off the competition, than to act as if >Rhapsody will be 'just a server', thus apparently consigning it >to an unremarkable existence as a sideline product? I hope you are right! Paul From sschuldt at mediaone.net Thu May 7 10:29:44 1998 From: sschuldt at mediaone.net (Steven W. Schuldt) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife Message-ID: <9805071729.AA00303@helio.ne.mediaone.net> > Paul blathered: > They screwed up taligent, they screwed up pink, they screwed up copland, > now watch them screw up Rhapsody. > Let's just wait and see, shall we. mmalc. > Seeing as we're rumor-mongering. Here is a fairly plausible one fresh from http://www.macosrumors.com/ that puts a more positive Rhap spin on the iMac: "The big announcement yesterday was what was demonstrated but not said. The nMac or Network Mac. Pop out the CD-ROM, swap 64 Meg for the 32 Meg. 1 gig drive for 4 gig drive, pop out the modem. Viola! $999 Network Mac administrative workstation. Faster than any Pentium desktop at any price. All OS and application management from server. Introduced into Rhapsody/Allegro OS environment. Price/performance ratio currently twice any Wintel desktop solution. Total cost of ownership using Gartner methodology would decimate any current TCO for Win NT solutions." - Steve Boston '98 +On+On From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Thu May 7 09:41:54 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Open Question to Current Developers References: Message-ID: <199805071641.LAA00393@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> > I'd say it's pretty much portable in nearly all cases. The only ifdefs are > for networking code. I'd imagine it'll be worse once we add MacOS. > > That's why I'm looking forward to using Java to iron out those differences > (Winsock, BSD sockets, OpenTransport) between OSes. Also, I've just been > bitten by the endian problem - something that I forgot to check when it > comes to networking code. > > Maybe if you're doing things like raw binary memory transfers - those > things might require OS specific code or calls. The key to this stuff is to wrap up the platform-dependant code in classes that present a consistent interface regardless of platform. Keep the ifdefs in a single place, rather than scattered throughout your code. - Jon From yves at vlaanderen.net Thu May 7 10:41:55 1998 From: yves at vlaanderen.net (Yves De Muyter) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife Message-ID: >At 1:11 AM -0700 5/7/98, Ziya Oz wrote: >There is a market for Rhapsody based servers out there. Helios has already >announced their OPI solution running on Rhapsody. > >>If he were >>a betting utensil, the Knife would make book that Apple will use WWDC to >>steer Rhapsody sharply away from the siren song of the server market." > >Typical Apple shortsightedness. What else would you expect from a company >that still can't deliver a real OS for the Mac after 14 years? They screwed >up taligent, It's the question who exactly screwed up Taligent. Apple or I.B.M. ? Maybe both of them... Different expectations maybe? Who knows... Look at the state of OS/2. Good start, where is the product now? >they screwed up pink Same as above. The trio (A-M-I) wanted a PowerPC native OS. This was the pink project. Apple's life depended somewhat on this i think, and the partnership screwed up.............. Messy >they screwed up copland, Hell. They had 2 big disasters, and their OS lacked innovation because of them. Apple tried on their own and they were killed by the blah-blah introduction of Windows95. They had an OS, wich hasn't changed a lot in 6 years They decided to focus on different new hardware (Newton). A big mis-step (1994, the time i switched over to NS) >now watch them screw up Rhapsody. Mmh, Apple has a better base now: a great OS to start with, some great programmers coming from NeXT and the top became somewhat NeXTified (and they paid $400mil for that) With Avie Tevanian at the top, i have all faith in the quality of the product. And there are some other reasons why Apple should keep Rhapsody as quiet as possible: MicroSoft! There is no need for Apple to launch it allready. They would create more enemies and they don't need that before it gets really shipped. I think it would be better if Apple tried to clear it's bad reputation before getting into the Enterprise market. The result of launching Rhapsody would be much better. And they have plenty of time left to do that. My point of view... Yves > >Paul > >Paul Nicholson Electronic Imaging Systems, Inc. >TEL 805 532 1068 5148 Commerce Avenue, Unit F >FAX 805 532 1065 Moorpark, CA 93021 U.S.A. >paul@eisusa.com http://www.eisusa.com ============================================ yves@sesuadra.org yves@vlaanderen.net From Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk Thu May 7 09:44:01 1998 From: Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk (mmalcolm crawford) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife In-Reply-To: <199805071623.MAA06617@luomat.peak.org> References: <199805071623.MAA06617@luomat.peak.org> Message-ID: <199805071644.RAA03362@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> TjL wrote: > I suppose they have to fill their pages with something..... and what good > is a rumour mill without a good fiery `the sky is falling, the earth is > crumbling, life as we know it is ending'? Certainly readership would go > down if they said `You know, Apple really hasn't said what their plans are, > so here are some wildass guesses with no basis in reality that might happen > one of these days' > Umm, then how do you account for MacOSRumors' success...? :-) I think the problem in many cases stems from the fact that a lot of the existing "media" don't know much about Rhapsody, and don't know the people in Apple, so they're floundering. I think most of the ex-NeXT crowd know many of the people inside, and more importantly trust them (the engineers anyway), and believe that they will deliver. I personally (reading the tea leaves) fully expect that Good News will be forthcoming at WWDC, and we shall see a clear strategy outlined, with YellowBox more firmly established at the API of the future on both Rhapsody and MacOS, and probably more evidence of a convergence betwen the two OSes. Best wishes, mmalc. BTW: It's good to see that with the iMac Apple found a use for all that translucent green plastic they had left over from the eMate ;-) From rmcassid at uci.edu Thu May 7 10:07:54 1998 From: rmcassid at uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Open Question to Current Developers Message-ID: <199805071707.AA12458@e4e.oac.uci.edu> Setzer Family had this to say on 5/7/1998 8:06 AM: >I'm not sure. Certainly each "filter" is a different algorithm--some kind >of convolution--and the convolution code I've seen in other contexts isn't >particularly complex (caveat: I can read C code but do not work as a >developer--I'm considering learning Obj-C in my "copious" spare time ;-). Well, there might be a point made for code that needs to be very highly optimized, which Photoshop filters _should_ be in and around the algorithms. But code like that should be small in quantity. Notably MMX and AltiVec. Is it just me or is AltiVec an absolutely awful name? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Cassidy School of Engineering, UGSA UC Irvine -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From herren at flannet.middlebury.edu Thu May 7 10:13:09 1998 From: herren at flannet.middlebury.edu (David Herren) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife References: Message-ID: paul@eisusa.com,Internet writes: >Typical Apple shortsightedness. What else would you expect from a company >that still can't deliver a real OS for the Mac after 14 years? They screwed >up taligent, they screwed up pink, they screwed up copland, now watch them >screw up Rhapsody. I'd council a bit of lightening up here. DO you honestly believe what you read in the Mac The Knife? -- David D. Herren www.cet.middlebury.edu/herren Assoc. Dir. for Tech. & Instruction herren@flannet.middlebury.edu Center for Educational Technology voice: (802)443-5746 Middlebury College, Middlebury, VT 05753 fax: (802)443-2053 From sschuldt at mediaone.net Thu May 7 11:06:27 1998 From: sschuldt at mediaone.net (Steven W. Schuldt) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts Message-ID: <9805071806.AA00317@helio.ne.mediaone.net> It becomes more obvious every day that Steve Jobs is (as he was 20+ years ago) using Apple to build the computer _he_ wants to use. This is actually a good thing, as from everything he has said publicly the last few years the computer he wants to use appears to be: - A simple to use computer that looks beautiful (ref. NeXT HW, iMac) - A computer that retains the best software from both the Mac and NeXT worlds (NeXT OO dev environment and stability, Mac UI and library of name-brand software) - A computer that hooks up to a fast, reliable network and stores its user data safely on managed NFS servers that just work 24X7 In this scenario, there is no need for Apple to build a Rhapsody server at all (desktop PowerMacs make fine NetInfo servers). Just partner with (or simply point customers at) Sun or Auspex or anyone else who can build planet-sized NFS servers and presto! You have a great, simple, scalable, easy to admnister computing experience. Why battle NT at all? Let the poor bastards locked into it continue to drown, or better still help them move over to the New Way. If this is what is going to go down Monday it is a fiendishly astute end run around Microsoft... - Steve Boston '98 +On +On From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Thu May 7 10:21:41 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts References: <9805071806.AA00317@helio.ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <199805071721.MAA00416@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> >In this scenario, there is no need for Apple to build a Rhapsody server at >all (desktop PowerMacs make fine NetInfo servers). I actually was thinking that, at least for educational customers, an AIO G3 would make a dandy server for a lab of iMacs. The AIO has SCSI, floppy, slots, and an optional Zip drive. The AIO server would be the teacher's computer, and sit on his or her desk. - Jon From tsikes at netcom.com Thu May 7 10:34:41 1998 From: tsikes at netcom.com (Terry Sikes) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife Message-ID: <199805071734.KAA21992@netcom15.netcom.com> >> At 1:20 AM -0700 5/7/98, Jonathan Hendry wrote: >> >> If he were >> >> a betting utensil, the Knife would make book that Apple will use WWDC to >> >> steer Rhapsody sharply away from the siren song of the server market." >> >> >> >> http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mactheknife/index.html >> > >> >Apple dodges left, feints right... The opponent's confused, doesn't >> >know where Apple will move next. >> > >> >"Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee" >> >> Apple's not even in the ring. Apple's confused, doesn't know where Apple >> will move next. > >That's what they want people to think. Until Monday. I agree, Apple has actually been acting as though it has something of a clue lately. I haven't always agreed with the decisions, but overall I think one must admit that things seem to be looking up! =) >What *better* way to throw off the competition, than to act as if >Rhapsody will be 'just a server', thus apparently consigning it >to an unremarkable existence as a sideline product? I direct you all back to the "Rhapsody as server OS" thread a while back, shortly after the initial announcement that it would be positioned that way. Windows NT went through the exact same controversy. The press (and many observers) can't seem to understand that a single OS can be BOTH a robust server OS and a client OS. I mean look at the other Unixen out there...Solaris, Digital Unix, HP/UX, AIX, Linux and the rest. Amazingly, the _exact same OS_ is useful in both roles. ;-) (NT is really in this category as well, there is no binary difference between the OS in NT Workstation an NT Server.) So, I'm inclined to agree that Apple's stated positioning of Rhapsody so far may be partly intended to confuse the competition. The downside is that its confusing the press, and the developer community as well. I really hope that Apple comes forth with a public, coherent, well stated and agressive plan for Rhapsody and MacOS at WWDC. (And I'm *really* hoping for a Rhapsody OpenGL announcement, although recent developments at Conix have perhaps made that a less pressing issue. :-) Terry -- tsikes@netcom.com From vince at humournet.com Thu May 7 10:54:09 1998 From: vince at humournet.com (Vince Sabio) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ** Sometime around 13:12 -0400 5/7/98, David Herren said: >paul@eisusa.com,Internet writes: >>Typical Apple shortsightedness. What else would you expect from a company >>that still can't deliver a real OS for the Mac after 14 years? They screwed >>up taligent, they screwed up pink, they screwed up copland, now watch them >>screw up Rhapsody. > >I'd council a bit of lightening up here. DO you honestly believe what you read in the Mac The Knife? I think that Paul's comments were focused more on Apple's track record than on the "information" in MTK (MTN? ). The track record speaks for itself ... __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Boy & His Sabre: vince@humournet.com Stop Internet Spam! Ted Kaczinsky meant well -- he just needed a better target list. From setzer at backfence.net Thu May 7 04:04:04 1998 From: setzer at backfence.net (Setzer Family) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: <199805071721.MAA00416@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: That qualifies as an epiphany, IMHO. I was wondering how the AIO would fit in with the iMac. That's an awesome concept. You don't need an entire classroom full of machines that can hook up to a scanner, for example; you just need a scanner on the teacher's box. Or a Zip drive. Or whatever. >>In this scenario, there is no need for Apple to build a Rhapsody server at >>all (desktop PowerMacs make fine NetInfo servers). > >I actually was thinking that, at least for educational customers, >an AIO G3 would make a dandy server for a lab of iMacs. The AIO >has SCSI, floppy, slots, and an optional Zip drive. The AIO >server would be the teacher's computer, and sit on his or her desk. > >- Jon From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Thu May 7 10:52:17 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife References: <199805071734.KAA21992@netcom15.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199805071752.MAA00429@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> >I agree, Apple has actually been acting as though it has something of >a clue lately. I haven't always agreed with the decisions, but >overall I think one must admit that things seem to be looking up! =) What I find amazing is the people who read Amelio's book, and yap about how Jobs schemed and turned on Amelio. At the same time, they assume that Jobs would be unable to apply these kinds of sneaky tactics in a wider business context, against Apple's competition. Is he a brilliant, sneaky backstabber? Or a complete dolt who makes all the wrong moves? - Jon From jesse at metamediasys.com Thu May 7 11:03:31 1998 From: jesse at metamediasys.com (Jesse Sng) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: <9805071806.AA00317@helio.ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: >It becomes more obvious every day that Steve Jobs is (as he was 20+ years >ago) using Apple to build the computer _he_ wants to use. This is >actually a >good thing, as from everything he has said publicly the last few years the >computer he wants to use appears to be: I went back to reading some books covering the 1984 period and it's interesting to recall that the original goal of the Mac was to have a machine that was between $1000-1500. What's more interesting was that Steve wanted Apple to ship the portable 'dynabook' clone version after the original Mac. Fast forward to 1998 - we have the iMac and by somewhere next year - the successor to the eMate... it's happening all over again (not bad, getting it right on the second attempt - Microsoft usually gets it right on the 3rd attempt). > - A simple to use computer that looks beautiful (ref. NeXT HW, iMac) The guy has always had a very keen sense of aesthetics and I'm glad for it. In any case, with increasing consumerisation of the market, it should start to look more like audio-video home theatre stuff than an ugly PC box. On an unrelated thought, even today, despite all the speed and power and supposedly great price-performance of Wintel machines I still can't get a decent keyboard (that ships with the box) that's worth my RSI trouble. I still do all the serious work on the Mac and use the PC for stuff that I can stay mostly on the mouse. I mean, it's a simple piece of hardware (a keyboard) but it makes all the difference. >In this scenario, there is no need for Apple to build a Rhapsody server at >all (desktop PowerMacs make fine NetInfo servers). Just partner with (or >simply point customers at) Sun or Auspex or anyone else who can build >planet-sized NFS servers and presto! You have a great, simple, scalable, >easy to admnister computing experience. Why battle NT at all? Let the poor >bastards locked into it continue to drown, or better still help them move >over to the New Way. I suspect if they drown long enough, they'll eventually look up and around and start to find that there are people who are actually having fun getting their work done. It'll take a while for that to change though... Jesse From lavoie at cst.ca Thu May 7 11:14:57 1998 From: lavoie at cst.ca (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: <9805071806.AA00317@helio.ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: At 10:13 -0700 5/7/1998, Steven W. Schuldt wrote: >It becomes more obvious every day that Steve Jobs is (as he was 20+ years >ago) using Apple to build the computer _he_ wants to use. This is >actually a >good thing, as from everything he has said publicly the last few years the >computer he wants to use appears to be: > > - A simple to use computer that looks beautiful (ref. NeXT HW, iMac) iMac being beautiful is highly debatable. On my part, I think it's the uglyest box out of Apple. But, whoever sent this nMac idea to rhumors strike a point. iMac's HW design does suggest a fairly good NC platform. Think about it. What good does 100BT does to home users? Nothing. But, for NCs however, it changes everything. Martin-Gilles Lavoie | "No! Try not. Do, or do not. Mac OS programmer, CS&T | There is no try." lavoie@cst.ca | -- Yoda on error handling From scott at cacti.org Thu May 7 11:43:18 1998 From: scott at cacti.org (Scott Stevenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife Message-ID: <199805071833.LAA19873@proxy3.ba.best.com> >> Apple's not even in the ring. Apple's confused, doesn't know where Apple >> will move next. > >That's what they want people to think. Until Monday. Yeah -- who saw iMac coming, particuarly this early and this fantastically? If there's one thing Apple hasn't been recently, it's predictable. - Scott ------ Scott Stevenson scott@cacti.org http://www.cacti.org <-- Macintosh & Rhapsody Resources From mikey at pageplanet.com Thu May 7 11:36:29 1998 From: mikey at pageplanet.com (Mikey) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts Message-ID: <1317570554-86218699@pageplanet.com> >From Martin-Gilles Lavoie : > iMac being beautiful is highly debatable. On my part, I think it's > the uglyest box out of Apple. Its probably designed to appeal to those who are less comfortable with today's computers which could be seen as hard, impersonal, and unapproachable. I don't like that much either, but I bet a lot of non-techie people will. Michael Sullivan mikey@pageplanet.com From lavoie at cst.ca Thu May 7 11:48:06 1998 From: lavoie at cst.ca (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife In-Reply-To: <199805071833.LAA19873@proxy3.ba.best.com> Message-ID: At 11:36 -0700 5/7/1998, Scott Stevenson wrote: >>> Apple's not even in the ring. Apple's confused, doesn't know where Apple >>> will move next. >> >>That's what they want people to think. Until Monday. > >Yeah -- who saw iMac coming, particuarly this early and this >fantastically? If there's one thing Apple hasn't been recently, it's >predictable. > Actually, this stirrs a thought or two. Perhaps Apple announced the machine before it was available just so that it beats MacOS Rumors to the punch! Martin-Gilles Lavoie | "No! Try not. Do, or do not. Mac OS programmer, CS&T | There is no try." lavoie@cst.ca | -- Yoda on error handling From rmd103 at psu.edu Thu May 7 12:23:05 1998 From: rmd103 at psu.edu (RM DAscenzo) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thu, 7 May 1998 11:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Jesse Sng wrote: >I suspect if they drown long enough, they'll eventually look up and around >and start to find that there are people who are actually having fun getting >their work done. It'll take a while for that to change though... A handful of NT administrators here have been regularly asking me about Rhapsody for the past several months. None of them are Mac users or are working in areas dominated by Apple hardware. -ron From sschuldt at mediaone.net Thu May 7 13:22:12 1998 From: sschuldt at mediaone.net (Steven W. Schuldt) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts Message-ID: <9805072022.AA00365@helio.ne.mediaone.net> > iMac being beautiful is highly debatable. On my part, I think it's the uglyest box out of Apple. > You know that translucent material doesn't seem to photograph well. I saw my first Apple Studio display yesterday (which has the eMate green vs the iMac teal/bandi blue/aquamarine translucency). This thing, which appears sort of spindley and bland when photographed, was so beautiful I almost choked. Also, there were some compelling motion close-ups of the iMac shown during a video section of the address yesterday that maybe better captured the gleaming, glowing look of the machine up close than the couple of shots on the net do. Anyway, I'm reserving judgement until I can get close to one. In my book, anyone who worked this hard on the design of a sub-thousand dollar computer in this day of churn-em-out, vomitous, shoebox clonemania deserves some recognition and success. I really want to defend the look of this machine, and not necessarily because I think it is all that great. I think it is a brave move to put a computer out there with such a focus on its look, when you know that any distinctive style is going to get on some people's nerves because it just isn't to their taste. Its a fun thing to do, its playful; a challenge. This industry is so full of itself, so uptight. These days people ordinarily have to write off aesthetics from the start when they buy a computer "yeah, they all look like garbage, whatever". Why? Why is it that we don't all drive boxy beige cars? I think Apple is trying to move the game back onto their home court. If aesthetics can mean something, if brand is going to count, if fashion can really sell computers, then Apple can hurt the Acers and Packard Bells of the world very, very badly by making an important part of computing these strong (if displeasing to some) fashion statements. Unfortunately, the trick is they probably need to make alot more of them. If you're going to make Swatch computers then you ultimately need a wall of different styles so everyone can find one they can live with. I wonder how many dye colors that material comes in? Maybe soon they can start dropping little gold gears and metal flecks and such into the hot molds. That would be a great pop-up at the Apple Store "iMac style: Golden Gears, Teal, Avation, Techic, Aquamarine, Sand...". It is a very different way of thinking (hmm) about computers, but it is quite compelling. Especially as computers get cheaper and more disposeable/redeployable. You can bet the new consumer portables will also be colorful and trendy looking. Interestingly, a handheld computer in Gibson's "Idoru" was described as looking like 'a translucent bag of colored jellybeans'. Ob. Rhap content: Uhm, go Rhapsody!? Sorry... - Steve Boston '98 +On +On From sschuldt at mediaone.net Thu May 7 13:24:19 1998 From: sschuldt at mediaone.net (Steven W. Schuldt) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife References: Message-ID: <9805072024.AA00370@helio.ne.mediaone.net> > Actually, this stirrs a thought or two. Perhaps Apple announced the machine before it was available just so that it beats MacOS Rumors to the punch! > Or maybe for the software strategy to make sense they needed to show the world the iMac first. - Steve Boston '98 +On +On From landb00 at DMI.USherb.CA Thu May 7 12:36:18 1998 From: landb00 at DMI.USherb.CA (Bertrand Landry-H=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=e9tu?=) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts Message-ID: <199805071932.PAA03453@carouge.DMI.USherb.CA> >But, whoever sent this nMac idea to rhumors strike a point. iMac's HW >design does suggest a fairly good NC platform. Think about it. What good >does 100BT does to home users? Nothing. But, for NCs however, it changes >everything. If they wanted it to be a NC wouldn't put Firewire capability instead? Bertrand Landry-H?tu From petro at playboy.com Thu May 7 13:47:33 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife In-Reply-To: <199805071734.KAA21992@netcom15.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 11:36 AM -0600 5/7/98, Terry Sikes wrote: >The press (and many observers) can't seem to understand that a single >OS can be BOTH a robust server OS and a client OS. I mean look at the >other Unixen out there...Solaris, Digital Unix, HP/UX, AIX, Linux and >the rest. Amazingly, the _exact same OS_ is useful in both roles. >;-) (NT is really in this category as well, there is no binary >difference between the OS in NT Workstation an NT Server.) I would argue that NT isn't in that category, since it really isn't all that useful compared to the others.... If you think that anything I say is in any way the corporate (or dis-corporate) position of the Organization I work for, then you are thoroughly out of touch with anything vaguely resembling reality, and should check yourself into the nearest Mental Health Facility. Thany and have a nice day. petro@p|_@boy.com From rmcassid at uci.edu Thu May 7 12:41:08 1998 From: rmcassid at uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife Message-ID: <199805071941.AA06030@e4e.oac.uci.edu> Steven W. Schuldt had this to say on 5/7/1998 12:30 PM: >Or maybe for the software strategy to make sense they needed to show the >world the iMac first. I think this is right on the money. Apple hasn't explained why there is 100BaseT in this thing (certainly don't need it for 2Mbps cable modem). Methinks Apple is expecting a nice fast server to be at the other end of that wire, which we should get a look at on Monday. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Cassidy School of Engineering, UGSA UC Irvine -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lavoie at cst.ca Thu May 7 12:45:38 1998 From: lavoie at cst.ca (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: <199805071932.PAA03453@carouge.DMI.USherb.CA> Message-ID: At 12:34 -0700 5/7/1998, Bertrand Landry-H?tu wrote: >>But, whoever sent this nMac idea to rhumors strike a point. iMac's HW >>design does suggest a fairly good NC platform. Think about it. What good >>does 100BT does to home users? Nothing. But, for NCs however, it changes >>everything. > >If they wanted it to be a NC wouldn't put Firewire capability instead? > >Bertrand Landry-H=E9tu What's FireWire got to do with NCs? Sure, it offers 400Mbit transfers, but is far less usefull for a network link (who else has FireWire?). 100MT ethernet offers both the required speed and compatibility with current networking infrastructures. Besides, nobody ruled out FireWire in the NC version of iMac. Martin-Gilles Lavoie | "No! Try not. Do, or do not. Mac OS programmer, CS&T | There is no try." lavoie@cst.ca | -- Yoda on error handling From izumi at pinoko.berkeley.edu Thu May 7 13:05:36 1998 From: izumi at pinoko.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805072005.NAA11613@moica.berkeley.edu> On Thu, 7 May 1998, Martin-Gilles Lavoie wrote: > But, whoever sent this nMac idea to rhumors strike a point. iMac's HW > design does suggest a fairly good NC platform. Think about it. What good > does 100BT does to home users? Nothing. But, for NCs however, it changes > everything. iMac has to be used as an NC, and it's very attractive as that. Without a floppy or Zip drive, it would be crazy to use this at home as the sole machine. You have to have a home LAN unless you are willing to commit your life to a single HD inside. From sanguish at digifix.com Thu May 7 13:15:52 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Open Question to Current Developers In-Reply-To: <9805071231.AA00943@buzz.henkel.de> References: <9805071231.AA00943@buzz.henkel.de> Message-ID: <199805072015.QAA19734@digifix.com> Georg Tuparev wrote: > We are working on a very large project (ca. 300k lines) and using virtually > every OS class (including EOF and WOF) + some PD class libraries (e.g. > MiscKit). The only #ifdef WIN_SHIT lines we wrote was to show Wintel > waiting cursor. Is that the correct #ifdef for that? If so, cool.. Our application isn't quite so big, but does have one small change on the Windows side (We leave our splash screen up as the main menu window if there are no other windows on the screen) Other than that, that is the only change we need to make for Windows.. and with an #ifdef even that goes away.. (We just don't have the spash screen dismiss automatically).. Yes Mr. Setzer... it just works if you keep your head on while you develop.. :-) From sanguish at digifix.com Thu May 7 13:18:22 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Open Question to Current Developers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805072018.QAA19775@digifix.com> Setzer Family wrote: > Malcolm sez: > >For good reason -- maybe you should believe them this time. > > I did believe them--and you! :-) > > What this actually came out of was that I read some rather slanderous > comments on cross-platform tools in general in a conference at > byte.com--the poster, who had never used Rhapsody, implied that all > cross-platform toolkits stink and that nothing good ever comes from Apple I've noticed this type of bashing too, and it seems to be confined largely to the 'comment' areas after positive Apple articles. On ZDnet, someone claimed (on the introduction of the iMac for $1299) that they could build a dual processor 466 P2 system for that price (interesting considering that the processor alone is $800 each).. Another claimed (obviously having missed reading the article) that the Pentium 2 400 Mhz must be faster, so Apple looses again.. From sanguish at digifix.com Thu May 7 13:21:30 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Open Question to Current Developers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805072021.QAA19828@digifix.com> Jesse Sng wrote: > I'd say it's pretty much portable in nearly all cases. The only ifdefs are > for networking code. I'd imagine it'll be worse once we add MacOS. > Actually, if you use OmniNetworking, the ifdefs for networking code goes away.. I hope that Apple produces/adopts OmniNetworking as an official Kit. > That's why I'm looking forward to using Java to iron out those differences > (Winsock, BSD sockets, OpenTransport) between OSes. Also, I've just been > bitten by the endian problem - something that I forgot to check when it > comes to networking code. > > Maybe if you're doing things like raw binary memory transfers - those > things might require OS specific code or calls. > Which should be covered by framework classes so that they are invivisble. > > Jesse Sng > From sanguish at digifix.com Thu May 7 13:27:07 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife In-Reply-To: <9805072024.AA00370@helio.ne.mediaone.net> References: <9805072024.AA00370@helio.ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <199805072027.QAA19914@digifix.com> "Steven W. Schuldt" wrote: > > > Actually, this stirrs a thought or two. Perhaps Apple announced the > machine before it was available just so that it beats MacOS Rumors to the > punch! > > > Or maybe for the software strategy to make sense they needed to show the > world the iMac first. > This is probably the case. This prevents more companies from pulling an Intuit.. Look at the reaction from the industry pundits. Look at the reaction from folks like the CEO of NetObjects... this is exactly what Apple needs to keep and attract software to the platform.. From ismail at iglou.com Thu May 7 13:35:13 1998 From: ismail at iglou.com (Ismail Tabtabai) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Mac the knife! Message-ID: Hello, >From Mac The Knife! | While some of the details remain wispy and elusive, the company has reportedly | concluded that its head-to-head odds against Windows NT in the server arena are | roughly equal to wee singer-composer Paul Williams' chances in a Greco-Roman | wrestling competition with the mighty Mr. Gwynn. No offense. Could some please just tell me what this individual talking about? In other word, are the odds good or bad? I hope no one gets mad, but his writing is all cultural based and I'm afraid that I only know the essentials in order to survive in the US. Not to mention couple of famouse names on the screen, but that is all. Thank you:) Regards Ismail Truth Seeker ************** From lavoie at cst.ca Thu May 7 13:36:52 1998 From: lavoie at cst.ca (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Open Question to Current Developers In-Reply-To: <199805072015.QAA19734@digifix.com> Message-ID: At 13:18 -0700 5/7/1998, Scott Anguish wrote: >Georg Tuparev wrote: [...] >> MiscKit). The only #ifdef WIN_SHIT lines we wrote was to show Wintel >> waiting cursor. > > > Is that the correct #ifdef for that? If so, cool.. Although I can't say where it comes from (I'd be frown upon if I'd mention it), one (big) company who supplied some sources to us for a project had a nifty #define in the unix version of the source code: #define HPUX_SUCKS_WET_FARTS_FROM_DEAD_PIGEONS_ASS 1 and it was actually used. It's a classic inside the company, and we often refer to this when describing something ("this sucks wet farts from dead pigeons"). So, as to stay on the Rhap-Talk topic, this proves one point; despite all one's effort to produce cross-platform code, there will always be occations where #defines are needed here and there to circomvent implementation differences. Getting stuff compiled on every platform (most particularely when using different compilers) it very hard. For example, C++ exceptions are implemented in many different ways, and worse even are the template instanciations. I suspect Obj-C to be less evil at this kinda thing (I haven't tried compiling my Rhapsody stuff for Intel or else yet), but networking apparently causes a problem. Martin-Gilles Lavoie | "No! Try not. Do, or do not. Mac OS programmer, CS&T | There is no try." lavoie@cst.ca | -- Yoda on error handling From sal at panix.com Thu May 7 13:41:23 1998 From: sal at panix.com (Sal Denaro) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife In-Reply-To: <199805071752.MAA00429@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 May 1998, Jonathan Hendry wrote: > Is he a brilliant, sneaky backstabber? Or a complete dolt who > makes all the wrong moves? "All warfare is based on deception. When able to attack, we must seem unable. When active, we must seem inactive... hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder" -- from "The art of war" by Sun Tzu The mac web sites, (and even web sites like HotWired) were filled with stories of the new PowerBooks. Some even had pictures. It looks like the iMac caught everyone by surprise. I think Scott Anguish was right in his assesment that Apple *thinks* it is at war. It would not surprise me if Steve had Tzu in mind, leaked info on the powerbooks to draw attention off of the iMac. Maybe he is doing the same with Rhapsody? -- sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro "The reality of the software business today is that if you find something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral From landb00 at DMI.USherb.CA Thu May 7 14:54:58 1998 From: landb00 at DMI.USherb.CA (Bertrand Landry-H=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=e9tu?=) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts Message-ID: <199805072151.RAA28339@carouge.DMI.USherb.CA> >What's FireWire got to do with NCs? Sure, it offers 400Mbit transfers, but >is far less usefull for a network link (who else has FireWire?). 100MT >ethernet offers both the required speed and compatibility with current >networking infrastructures. I know FireWire isn't quite adopted yet... but an interesting part of an NC is the possibility to NetworkBoot the computer, which (i assume) needs a lot of bandwith! FireWire has the speed we need for that. The iMac has no expansion capability thus we can't add a FireWire card :(. 100Mbit might be acceptable ... As for it being an NC, it can't be anything else: no floppy & no zip. I can't imagine it as a standalone computer... Bertrand Landry-H?tu From petro at playboy.com Thu May 7 16:49:00 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: <199805072005.NAA11613@moica.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: At 2:06 PM -0600 5/7/98, Izumi Ohzawa wrote: >On Thu, 7 May 1998, Martin-Gilles Lavoie wrote: > >> But, whoever sent this nMac idea to rhumors strike a point. iMac's HW >> design does suggest a fairly good NC platform. Think about it. What good >> does 100BT does to home users? Nothing. But, for NCs however, it changes >> everything. > >iMac has to be used as an NC, and it's very attractive as that. Why? Why would I want an NC with a 4 gig HD? >Without a floppy or Zip drive, it would be crazy to use this at Floppies are obsolete, and as to the Zip Drive, well, maybe some interprising sole will come along and BUILD A USB REMOVABLE DRIVE FOR THEM . Remember--and I have to keep telling myself this--IT'S A CONSUMER DEVICE. ENTRY LEVEL. I'm going to make a predicition. Jobs kept refering to this box: Consumer Professional ____ ____ Desktop | a | b | a= iMac |____|____| b= PMac G3 Laptop | d | c | c= New G3 Laptops |____|____| d= Unannounced "Consumer Portable" (ie. MacOS lite boxen) Great. Execpt that that doesn't _really_ reflect the realities of the market place. Sure, the G3 is a good machine, but there is always a high end market. Sure, the iMac is a great machine, bu there is always a high end conusmer market. One of 2 things will happen: 1) Each of these boxes will grow to provide 2 seperate products with in them. i.e. introduction of a "slimline" notebook ala 2400, a "high end" G3 (like 4 or 6 PCI slot machine with a faster buss, and no IDE drives) and second iMac with a 17" display. 2) Licesncing will be renewed, so that other companies will be able to pick up around the edges of MacOS. I.e. provide the above machines. If you think that anything I say is in any way the corporate (or dis-corporate) position of The Organization I work for, then you are thoroughly out of touch with anything vaguely resembling reality, and should check yourself into the nearest Mental Health Facility. Thanks and have a nice day. petro@p|_@\/boy.com / From petro at playboy.com Thu May 7 17:00:47 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: <199805072151.RAA28339@carouge.DMI.USherb.CA> Message-ID: At 3:52 PM -0600 5/7/98, Bertrand Landry-H?tu wrote: >>What's FireWire got to do with NCs? Sure, it offers 400Mbit transfers, = >but >>is far less usefull for a network link (who else has FireWire?). 100MT >>ethernet offers both the required speed and compatibility with current >>networking infrastructures. > >I know FireWire isn't quite adopted yet... but an interesting part of = >an NC is the possibility to NetworkBoot the computer, which (i = >assume) needs a lot of bandwith! FireWire has the speed we need for = Not really. PC's have been booting over the network since 4 mbs token ring was fast. that. The iMac has no expansion capability thus we can't add a = >FireWire card :(. 100Mbit might be acceptable ... > >As for it being an NC, it can't be anything else: no floppy & no zip. = >I can't imagine it as a standalone computer... THINK CONSUMER. I think I answered about the lack of a Zip in a previous post. Think USB. Let's put it this way. I don't bother storing drivers locally any more. When I need on, I d/l it from the net. Just as fast as digging thru 300 floppy disks, and I always have the latest version. That 10/100 card? Bet it will hook right up to a cable modem or ISDN terminal adapter. If you think that anything I say is in any way the corporate (or dis-corporate) position of The Organization I work for, then you are thoroughly out of touch with anything vaguely resembling reality, and should check yourself into the nearest Mental Health Facility. Thanks and have a nice day. petro@p|_@\/boy.com / From dmoore at gage.com Thu May 7 16:00:35 1998 From: dmoore at gage.com (Doug Moore) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9805072300.AA03684@leinie.gage.com> > Remember--and I have to keep telling myself this--IT'S A CONSUMER > DEVICE. ENTRY LEVEL. > For another perspective on this (and more in line with the charter of this list, but not by much...) I can't help but think of this machine as the nearly perfect machine for the users of our custom apps. Call center personnel, data entry folk, etc. This seems to be a perfect machine for those applications. Think of it as a replacement for all those dumb terminals out there. The X-Terminal done right. There is a huge market for this kind of hardware application in the 'Enterprise'. I for one will start pushing for it, right after I get the software gospel next week. The conventional NC vision is brain dead. I happen to like this as a compromise solution. Not to mention that if I had one at home I could get my kids off of my development machine there... Doug Moore Gage Marketing Group From izumi at pinoko.berkeley.edu Thu May 7 16:40:58 1998 From: izumi at pinoko.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805072341.QAA11654@moica.berkeley.edu> On Thu, 7 May 1998, you wrote: > >As for it being an NC, it can't be anything else: no floppy & no zip. = > >I can't imagine it as a standalone computer... > > THINK CONSUMER. I think I answered about the lack of a Zip in a > previous post. Think USB. Not every consumer will get one at +$120 price point. Wait until 1999 when, "iMac ate my {home work/thesis/tax return}" will replace the standard dog excuse. Before, you really didn't have any excuses for losing things. Now, iMac will give some legitimacy to the excuse. It just reinforces a bad habit. On the other hand, it's a perfect "enterprise seat machine," as Doug Moore suggests. From eugene at neosoft.com Thu May 7 16:57:16 1998 From: eugene at neosoft.com (Eugene Lee) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: from Petro at "May 7, 98 03:42:44 pm" Message-ID: <199805072357.SAA22085@inferno.ops.neosoft.com> Petro said: : : Consumer Professional : ____ ____ :Desktop | a | b | a= iMac : |____|____| b= PMac G3 :Laptop | d | c | c= New G3 Laptops : |____|____| d= Unannounced "Consumer Portable" (ie. : MacOS lite boxen) : : Great. Execpt that that doesn't _really_ reflect the realities of :the market place. The existing market. : Sure, the G3 is a good machine, but there is always a high end market. The G3 is well-suited for higher-end markets. And there are the faster motherboards and G4 that are coming up in a few months. I don't understand the reasoning behind this comment. : Sure, the iMac is a great machine, bu there is always a high end :conusmer market. There will always be computers for the high-end market. But there are also computers for the rest of us. So regardless of all the hype surrounding the importance of computers and the Internet, the truth is that lots of people and institutions still have neither. How's that reality for you? -- Eugene Lee eugene@neosoft.com From k97jm01 at cc.kzoo.edu Thu May 7 17:06:47 1998 From: k97jm01 at cc.kzoo.edu (Joshua Marker) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: <199805072357.SAA22085@inferno.ops.neosoft.com> Message-ID: > The existing market. > > : Sure, the G3 is a good machine, but there is always a high end market. > > The G3 is well-suited for higher-end markets. And there are the faster > motherboards and G4 that are coming up in a few months. I don't understand > the reasoning behind this comment. No, it absolutely is not. No SMP, ever. That completely obviates the possibility. > There will always be computers for the high-end market. But there are also > computers for the rest of us. So regardless of all the hype surrounding the > importance of computers and the Internet, the truth is that lots of people > and institutions still have neither. How's that reality for you? There's no need to behave with an attitude like that. 'How's that reality for you' indeed. He wasn't talking about the fact that many people don't have computers. Business. That's what he was talking about (If I'm not overstepping here, Petro) and he had some good points. Look, commentary is quite nice, but facts are better. Joshua --- "To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin." --Cardinal Bellarmino, at the trial of a man much greater than himself. From jesse at metamediasys.com Thu May 7 17:31:02 1998 From: jesse at metamediasys.com (Jesse Sng) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: <9805072300.AA03684@leinie.gage.com> Message-ID: >For another perspective on this (and more in line with the charter of this >list, but not by much...) I can't help but think of this machine as the >nearly perfect machine for the users of our custom apps. Call center >personnel, data entry folk, etc. This seems to be a perfect machine for >those applications. Think of it as a replacement for all those dumb >terminals >out there. The X-Terminal done right. There is a huge market for this kind >of hardware application in the 'Enterprise'. I for one will start pushing >for it, right after I get the software gospel next week. Yeah... terminals, smart cash registers (with a Swatch design and look !), kiosk machines, public access terminals. All these actually have requirements that match the iMac very well. Quite likely, we might be able to get this in a more 'sober' color for corporate users - in charcoal, black, platinum (hey !! Build to Order by Color !!) - or even a stripped down caseless design for those who need it for OEM type of applications. The nice thing would be that all these solutions areas can benefit from the increased scale of production and lower prices. Jesse Sng From jesse at metamediasys.com Thu May 7 17:31:06 1998 From: jesse at metamediasys.com (Jesse Sng) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I think Scott Anguish was right in his assesment that Apple *thinks* >it is at war. It would not surprise me if Steve had Tzu in mind, leaked >info on the powerbooks to draw attention off of the iMac. Maybe he >is doing the same with Rhapsody? There isnt' a choice. Intel is paranoid and they are at war, Microsoft thinks that they are at war. The old Apple probaby thought they were in a country club.... It's good to know that Apple is back in the war.... Jesse From jesse at metamediasys.com Thu May 7 17:31:01 1998 From: jesse at metamediasys.com (Jesse Sng) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: <199805072005.NAA11613@moica.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: >Without a floppy or Zip drive, it would be crazy to use this at >home as the sole machine. You have to have a home LAN unless >you are willing to commit your life to a single HD inside. Why not ? I'm sure there will be a backup storage mechanism, but it just won't be SCSI. But you've probably hit the nail on the head - it's probably more a NC first and home machine second. Most of us hardly use the floppy drive anymore - the CD-ROM is definitely a must, and for home machines, the ability to connect to internet is probably the most important thing. The hard drive is usually there for you to install applications. Seriously, this is pretty much what most Windows home users do - most of the storage used up is either for installed applications, or for stuff downloaded over the net. Jesse Sng From jesse at metamediasys.com Thu May 7 17:31:05 1998 From: jesse at metamediasys.com (Jesse Sng) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife In-Reply-To: <199805071941.AA06030@e4e.oac.uci.edu> Message-ID: >I think this is right on the money. Apple hasn't explained why there is >100BaseT in this thing (certainly don't need it for 2Mbps cable modem). Yeah.. they also haven't said anything about why you need a fast infra-red port. Think about this - kids/corporate workers go out into the field, gather data on their handheld devices, and then come back and beam all that large amount of data into their iMacs - or even hook it up to the USB. The hardware is a foundation for other things to be announced next week. Some of those features will also see their way into the rest of the mainstream desktops to come. >Methinks Apple is expecting a nice fast server to be at the other end of >that wire, which we should get a look at on Monday. No doubt running Rhapsody... Jesse From jesse at metamediasys.com Thu May 7 17:31:07 1998 From: jesse at metamediasys.com (Jesse Sng) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Open Question to Current Developers In-Reply-To: <199805072021.QAA19828@digifix.com> References: Message-ID: Scott wrote : > Actually, if you use OmniNetworking, the ifdefs for networking code >goes away.. > > I hope that Apple produces/adopts OmniNetworking as an official Kit. Well - I'm definitely using this as my 'official' kit. Took me all of 20 mins to type in the code and compile after Ken helped me figure out the allocation and initialisation methods to call. We'll need an Open Transport version once Yellowbox goes to the MacOS though... > Which should be covered by framework classes so that they are >invivisble. Agreed. Jesse From theisen at akaMail.com Thu May 7 17:32:08 1998 From: theisen at akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Fwd: Update: Rhapsody port of Mozilla Message-ID: <1d8ou57.tcvpij1e4p2t0M@rhrz-isdn3-p11.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> I thought this might interesting... Dirk ------- Begin Forwarded Message ------- Subject: Update: Rhapsody port of Mozilla From: Chris McAfee Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 01:41:12 -0700 The mozilla port is underway: news://netscape.public.mozilla.rhapsody news://news.mozilla.org/netscape.public.mozilla.rhapsody http://www.mozilla.org/ports/rhapsody Back-end has started to come together, UI is next. See you on mozilla.org, -Chris mcafee@netscape.com Unix Communicator -------- End Forwarded Message -------- -- No RISC - No fun From ghp at techline.com Thu May 7 17:57:03 1998 From: ghp at techline.com (Grays Harbor Paper, L.P.) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199805080059.RAA16420@mx2.techline.com> The main problem with the G4 today is that how do you get 4 processors on the same "chip wafer" to handle the workflow. The G4 is inherently a SMP chip. As to whether people will run multiples G4 chip daughter cards is unknown. Hey, I got 2.2 GHz, baby! (A pair of 4 processor 275 MHz G4 chips). I think it will be a while (300 MHz to 600 to 1200 to 2400 is 3x18 months; 4.5 yrs). The G3 is not an SMP chip just as the 603 series is not. I think that was his point. If you bought a multimedia Dell box for the corporate world and bought a high end consumer Dell box, what do you think the difference in architecture would be? Today, one runs NT and one runs Win95. That's the way it works here at my mill. Both can have SCSI, big video cards, kick butt sound cards. I fail to see a high end iMac coming unless aesthetics replace cost. So today all computers are beige and all laptops are gray/black (generally speaking). If I read the earlier post, some one (apple?) is building a USB floppy drive. Seems pretty simple to me. What people seem to forget, including myself, is that there are always trade offs. If you buy what you need based upon some rational thinking, then this iMac makes real sense. I agree that a floppy is critical if you and your neighbor are going to be swapping 1 MB files everyday or you buy programs in which a CD is a waste (like a 3 MB program). Otherwise a home user with a 4 GB drive can store a lot of downloaded stuff. Better yet, a LS-120 USB drive. Reads floppys. Ben At 05:06 PM 5/7/98 -0700, Joshua Marker wrote: >> The existing market. >> >> : Sure, the G3 is a good machine, but there is always a high end market. >> >> The G3 is well-suited for higher-end markets. And there are the faster >> motherboards and G4 that are coming up in a few months. I don't understand >> the reasoning behind this comment. > > No, it absolutely is not. No SMP, ever. That completely obviates >the possibility. > >> There will always be computers for the high-end market. But there are also >> computers for the rest of us. So regardless of all the hype surrounding the >> importance of computers and the Internet, the truth is that lots of people >> and institutions still have neither. How's that reality for you? > > There's no need to behave with an attitude like that. 'How's that >reality for you' indeed. > > He wasn't talking about the fact that many people don't have >computers. Business. That's what he was talking about (If I'm not >overstepping here, Petro) and he had some good points. > > > Look, commentary is quite nice, but facts are better. > > Joshua >--- >"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to >claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin." >--Cardinal Bellarmino, at the trial of a man much greater than himself. > Grays Harbor Paper, L.P. Technical Department 801 23rd Street Hoquiam, Washington 98550 (360) 538-5713 ghp@techline.com contact: Ben Hohman Be well, do good work, and keep in touch. -G. Kellior The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the shore of imagination. Think Different. From eugene at neosoft.com Thu May 7 18:09:25 1998 From: eugene at neosoft.com (Eugene Lee) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: from Joshua Marker at "May 7, 98 05:06:38 pm" Message-ID: <199805080109.UAA22398@inferno.ops.neosoft.com> Joshua Marker said: :Eugene Lee said: :> The G3 is well-suited for higher-end markets. And there are the faster :> motherboards and G4 that are coming up in a few months. I don't understand :> the reasoning behind this comment. : : No, it absolutely is not. No SMP, ever. That completely obviates :the possibility. The PPC-750 (you know it as the G3) is a descendent of the PPC-603, both of which do not support the MEI cache-coherency protocol. But then how does some upstart wet-behind-the-ears company come out with a platform like the BeBox that supports SMP over dual 603s? It's called "software". Some hardware can make it easier for the software, but SMP is mostly a software issue. It isn't impossible, but it can be more difficult to implement. : He wasn't talking about the fact that many people don't have :computers. Business. That's what he was talking about (If I'm not :overstepping here, Petro) and he had some good points. After the consumer/professional/desktop/laptop picture, I found his views rather high-end-centric, not business-centric. And given that Apple is not targetting the real high-end market until other pieces fall into place (such as SMP Rhapsody), his high-end comments made no sense given the context of Apple's current focus and direction. : Look, commentary is quite nice, but facts are better. Petro's message was a reactionary commentary regarding Apple's choices for defining their product line. His "facts" were only his view of the reality of the marketplace, i.e. the high-end market. And if your reality consists of the G3 and "No SMP, ever", I challenge you to expand your reality. -- Eugene Lee eugene@neosoft.com From eugene at neosoft.com Thu May 7 18:34:44 1998 From: eugene at neosoft.com (Eugene Lee) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: <199805080109.UAA22398@inferno.ops.neosoft.com> from Eugene Lee at "May 7, 98 06:10:52 pm" Message-ID: <199805080134.UAA22519@inferno.ops.neosoft.com> [apologies for replying to my own messages] Eugene Lee said: : :The PPC-750 (you know it as the G3) is a descendent of the PPC-603, both :of which do not support the MEI cache-coherency protocol. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I meant "MESI". Crossed wires, my bad. -- Eugene Lee eugene@neosoft.com From engle at tundra.org Thu May 7 19:50:37 1998 From: engle at tundra.org (Jaeson Engle) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Win95 TCP/IP Q (Yellow Box) Message-ID: I've recently gotten set up on Yellow Box on Win95. My computer only has a modem for networking (no ethernet). Yellow Box daemons appear to need a network (nmserver specifically). I do have PPP set up on the box, but since I only have one PPP account (and one dial-up phone line to spare) I've found it a pain, since my Mac is on the PPP, and I prefer it that way (the PC doesn't really need PPP access much). So my question is this: is there something similar to locahost networking that I can set up on Win95 such that I can run nmserver and not have it try to connect via PPP? I just want the apps to get launched so I can do my dev work! Thanks, Jaeson From rcfa at cubiculum.com Thu May 7 13:49:03 1998 From: rcfa at cubiculum.com (Ronald C.F. Antony) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody and Y2K (was Re: DR2 review on Rhapnet) In-Reply-To: <9805051711.AA12677@misckit.com> References: <9805051711.AA12677@misckit.com> Message-ID: <9805072049.AA14116@kannix.cubiculum.com> > > Hm, does Rhapsody have the 2036 (?) problem like practically every other > > computer? Or is that just way too far off? :P The 2036 problem is due to the way time is kept. It is just the result of a 32-bit int counter overflowing at some point or another. This is just one of the many reasons why its HIGH TIME for 64-bit CPUs and 64-bit clean operating systems. I hope someone will keep reiterating this point at the WWDC PPC/Hardware feedback session. WE NEED 64-BIT ARCHITECTURES, and we need them now. People may not be aware that they need them, but they do. Memory mapping functionality in the OS is close to useless, if all you can address is a lousy 2GB of virtual address space due to the 32-bit limitations. 2GB of high-quality video is not enough for even a feature film in DVD-like resolution, even less for HDTV and editing. 32-bit integers are not enough to use efficient fixed-point arithmetic in financial applications, since it's not enough to deal e.g. with the Italian gov. debt in Lira, in the same abstract data-type as with a retail sales transaction. To remain with the list's topic: Rhapsody has to become a 64-bit clean OS. Ronald ============================================================================== "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." G.B. Shaw | rcfa@cubiculum.com | NeXT-mail welcome From rcfa at cubiculum.com Thu May 7 13:55:14 1998 From: rcfa at cubiculum.com (Ronald C.F. Antony) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: <199805052005.QAA08669@digifix.com> References: <199805052005.QAA08669@digifix.com> Message-ID: <9805072055.AA14137@kannix.cubiculum.com> > If these folks (those who published, and those who showed it to > them) don't honor this NDA, its certainly possible that they are violating > confidentiality in more serious manners as well. Nobody who didn't sign the NDA has to adhere to it. So the publishers should be clean. Of course they may still have to remove the article upon Apple's request (as they did) either due to existing laws or out of good taste. The people violating NDA's well, Apple should slap them. As Napoleon is supposed to have said: "I love treason, not however the traitor." Ronald ============================================================================== "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." G.B. Shaw | rcfa@cubiculum.com | NeXT-mail welcome From rcfa at cubiculum.com Thu May 7 12:11:01 1998 From: rcfa at cubiculum.com (Ronald C.F. Antony) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Gil Amelio et al. In-Reply-To: <199805031628.SAA11856@mailbox.univie.ac.at> References: <199805031628.SAA11856@mailbox.univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <9805071911.AA13899@kannix.cubiculum.com> > So we agree that the main decisions of the last nine months or so - > whether "brainers" or "no-brainers" were indeed made by Jobs and his > management team? < Possibly, but we may not agree that these decisions are what makes Apple now profitable. Economies, Companies and consumer minds are like supertankers: You steer now, and you get reactions way down the line. The same happens in politics: conservative politicians take pressure off the economy while it's in a slump. Voters get tired of the negative short term side effects and vote in "social" politicians, who then reap the benefits of the measures taken earlier. As things get progressively better, their law-making fury sets in, and all sorts of things that curb growth are being decided upon. When after a long time the damage becomes obvious, voter attitude changes and the "nasty, evil conservatives" are voted to power in protest, just in time to fix the mess and then be given the boot again... The main reason why Apple now makes profits are: a) great MacOS 8 sales. The whole MacOS 8 stuff was developed and put on the market under Amelio. Jobs was just in place to announce the great sales figures. b) new, faster and cheaper hardware. It is a known fact that Amelio, as an engineer, was exactly working on cutting costs and improving the price/performance ratio of the product line. Also, the machines generating lots of sales now, saw the start of their development under Amelio. The new advertizement campaign may help, but it must have been clear to most people that the old one wasn't all that great, and MacOS 8 brought in record sales even before the new campagne was out, so without knocking or praising what Jobs did, to see the impact of his decisions we will have to wait a little longer. What he did do is make the stock price go up, but that will only last as long as the first disappointing quarter comes along, plus the stock market analysts are mainly morons. If Apple had sold all its crown jewels for a quarter and a dime, they still would have applauded the new collaborative spirit between Apple and MS and the stock would have gone up. Stock markets are markets in expectations, and not in facts. As such they reflect the future, and often reflect it very much so in the wrong way. Ronald ============================================================================== "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." G.B. Shaw | rcfa@cubiculum.com | NeXT-mail welcome From sanguish at digifix.com Thu May 7 21:21:54 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805080421.AAA22525@digifix.com> Joshua Marker wrote: > > The existing market. > > > > : Sure, the G3 is a good machine, but there is always a high end market. > > > > The G3 is well-suited for higher-end markets. And there are the faster > > motherboards and G4 that are coming up in a few months. I don't > > understand the reasoning behind this comment. > > No, it absolutely is not. No SMP, ever. That completely obviates > the possibility. Uh, what exactly does this mean? Are you saying that you CAN'T have an SMP G3 box ever? Why? Mac OS on an SMP box is a waste in most cases... Rhapsody will change that. From sanguish at digifix.com Thu May 7 21:28:09 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: <9805072055.AA14137@kannix.cubiculum.com> References: <9805072055.AA14137@kannix.cubiculum.com> Message-ID: <199805080428.AAA22575@digifix.com> "Ronald C.F. Antony" wrote: > > If these folks (those who published, and those who showed it to > > them) don't honor this NDA, its certainly possible that they are > > violating confidentiality in more serious manners as well. > > Nobody who didn't sign the NDA has to adhere to it. Are you saying that knowingly broadcasting trade secrets isn't illegal? > So the publishers > should be clean. Of course they may still have to remove the article upon > Apple's request (as they did) either due to existing laws or out of good > taste. > Actually, they should have never published it. It was irresponsible to do so. > The people violating NDA's well, Apple should slap them. > At the very least? From paul at eisusa.com Thu May 7 21:44:38 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: <199805080421.AAA22525@digifix.com> Message-ID: At 9:23 PM -0700 5/7/98, Scott Anguish wrote: >Joshua Marker wrote: >> > The existing market. >> > >> > : Sure, the G3 is a good machine, but there is always a high end market. >> > >> > The G3 is well-suited for higher-end markets. And there are the faster >> > motherboards and G4 that are coming up in a few months. I don't >> > understand the reasoning behind this comment. Remember the G3 is NOT a high performance chip ( in spite of the fact it toasts the Pentium II). It's a souped up 603e. They didn't use silicon to make lots of execution units or to build fast floating point hardware. This is the Ford Pinto with a supercharger and alloy wheels added on. OK, it blows the doors off anything else in production, but it is not a high performance chip. The die size is small and the power consumption is low. Those were the design goals, a low power, low cost MPU. Motorola isn't done tweaking the 604e. Just wait! When they apply the same tweaks to the 604e to get the G4, then you will have a high performance chip. G3's will be on the low end of the performance curve. >> No, it absolutely is not. No SMP, ever. That completely obviates >> the possibility. > > > Uh, what exactly does this mean? Are you saying that you CAN'T have >an SMP G3 box ever? > > Why? The bus cache mechanism does not support multiprocessing. There's no snooping hardware. Paul Paul Nicholson Electronic Imaging Systems, Inc. TEL 805 532 1068 5148 Commerce Avenue, Unit F FAX 805 532 1065 Moorpark, CA 93021 U.S.A. paul@eisusa.com http://www.eisusa.com From paul at eisusa.com Thu May 7 21:46:44 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: <199805080059.RAA16420@mx2.techline.com> Message-ID: At 5:58 PM -0700 5/7/98, Grays Harbor Paper, L.P. wrote: >The main problem with the G4 today is that how do you get 4 processors on >the same "chip wafer" to handle the workflow. The G4 is inherently a SMP >chip. I don't believe the G4 is a 4 processor chip. From what I've been able to gather it is based on the 604. The 604 has more execution units, but it is still a single processor. The cache on the 604 is designed for SMP configurations. The G3 is the souped up version of the 603, and for now only one is gonna come on a chip. I have heard that with the small die size of the G3, it is possible to put more thatn 1 on a chip, but I don't know when it will be available. Paul From rcfa at cubiculum.com Thu May 7 22:06:35 1998 From: rcfa at cubiculum.com (Ronald C.F. Antony) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: <199805080428.AAA22575@digifix.com> References: <9805072055.AA14137@kannix.cubiculum.com> <199805080428.AAA22575@digifix.com> Message-ID: <9805080506.AA15427@kannix.cubiculum.com> you wrote: > "Ronald C.F. Antony" wrote: > > > If these folks (those who published, and those who showed it to > > > them) don't honor this NDA, its certainly possible that they are > > > violating confidentiality in more serious manners as well. > > > > Nobody who didn't sign the NDA has to adhere to it. > > Are you saying that knowingly broadcasting trade secrets isn't illegal? AFAIK, in order for something to constitute a valid trade secret, it has to be designated and marked as such. However, if you have never signed the NDA, you don't know that certain things are considered a trade secret. So unless the people who leak information let you know at the same moment that what they are leaking is a trade secret, the publisher doesn't do anything that I consider unethical or illegal (although I don't claim to be a legal expert). It is the duty of the press to report the news that they are able to gather. Dirty secrets of the president's sex life aren't intended for the public either, yet, they are newsworthy, because they are apt to expose a lie and a double-standard morality in an influential person, whose trustworthiness is relevant. In the same vein, lots of non-public information about companies and their products is routinely reported, leaked, etc. and influences stock prices, purchase decisions, etc. Look at all relevant newspapers, the InfoWorld Cringley column included. It is wrong to expect the press to self-censor, except in very special circumstances. Actually, it is only the unbiased, ruthless reporting of everything that comes to attention and competition to that point, that prevents conspiracy-like reporting of news as the ones in power would like to see them. Big commercial news reporting is ever more failing in that respect. See Chomsky and on the lighter side "Wag the Dog". It is up to companies to impose draconian measures to discourage the occurrence of such leaks even if it means making "anti social" decisions, e.g. firing and fining employees even in question can't pay the college tuition for his children anymore and has to send them to work and to a state school instead of Stanford, has to sell the house and has to live under a bridge or in a trailer-park instead. > > So the publishers > > should be clean. Of course they may still have to remove the article upon > > Apple's request (as they did) either due to existing laws or out of good > > taste. > > Actually, they should have never published it. It was irresponsible to do > so. I disagree. The press is supposed to report any information they are given, that is in the public interest, as long as the press does not ACTIVELY encourage criminal acts to obtain that information. > > The people violating NDA's well, Apple should slap them. > > At the very least? That's what law suits are invented for. And employment contracts. If Apple has the correct provisions in it's contracts, they should be capable of acting accordingly. Bite, don't bark should be Apple's philosophy in that respect. On the other hand, given from what I could read on this list, there does not seem to have been much surprising or even significantly new information in the article, so I don't know where all the outrage comes from. Any company of Apple's size must face the fact that a certain amount of information is leaking on a constant basis and should never base its business strategy on any other assumption. Ronald ============================================================================== "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." G.B. Shaw | rcfa@cubiculum.com | NeXT-mail welcome From Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk Thu May 7 23:35:38 1998 From: Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk (mmalcolm crawford) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Win95 TCP/IP Q (Yellow Box) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805080635.HAA03639@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Jaeson wrote: > I've recently gotten set up on Yellow Box on Win95. My computer only > has a modem for networking (no ethernet). Yellow Box daemons appear to > need a network (nmserver specifically). > The nmserver process is started automatically by the system (it's added to the Windows registry when you install YB) -- the only thing you should need to do is to enable TCP/IP networking (there's a simple check box in one of the Contol Panels IIRC), even if you never use it yourself. Best wishes, mmalc. From gfair at uniserve.com Thu May 7 16:03:40 1998 From: gfair at uniserve.com (Graham Fair) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser, etc. Message-ID: >New logo? No, its a new CAN!!! No longer the half-and-half red and blue with white stripes separating them..... Oh wait, that was Pepsi. Son of a Sculley! >Others have commented that for now Win95/NT is the key - other >platforms come later. Well, although history would judge against such folley, I've always been of the mind that if your company even has the slightest amount of innovation then you can do well against Microsoft. >There is one more HUGE target - old Intel machines. If Apple could give old >machines (386s, 8MB) a VGA Mac GUI and display YB apps remotely >they would have a huge potential market. I don't think Apple should try and put YB or Rhapsody or MacOS on these machines, I think Apple should try and replace this market with new extremely-low cost machines. From gcoffey at primenet.com Fri May 8 00:18:09 1998 From: gcoffey at primenet.com (Geoff Coffey) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet Message-ID: <199805080715.AAA15023@smtp01.primenet.com> >> > If these folks (those who published, and those who showed it to >> > them) don't honor this NDA, its certainly possible that they are >> > violating confidentiality in more serious manners as well. >> >> Nobody who didn't sign the NDA has to adhere to it. > > Are you saying that knowingly broadcasting trade secrets isn't illegal? > >> So the publishers >> should be clean. Of course they may still have to remove the article upon >> Apple's request (as they did) either due to existing laws or out of good >> taste. >> > > Actually, they should have never published it. It was irresponsible >to do so. > > >> The people violating NDA's well, Apple should slap them. >> > > At the very least? I agree with you in spirit, Scott, but I don't think rhapnet is in any legal trouble. As far as trade secrets go, if apple were to take them to court, I think they could make a pretty effective argument that if they are, as apple says, "Trade Secrets" then by that very fact they couldn't possibly have known they were trade secrets. And as a member of the press (which anyone can be) they are not legally obligated to verify that their sources obtained _their_ information legally. Wether or not the are morally obligated to do so is arguable, but there doesn't seem to be any legal obligation. As an example, many publications have reported on events taking place in federal grand jury proceedings lately. There is no way to legally obtain that information, so their sources are obviously violating the law, but the publishers of the information are protected. It's a shame, but it seems responsible journalism and legally protected journalism are not the same thing, and apple could not sue rhapnet for the report. The "but everybody knows" argument won't hold up in court ("Objection, your honor -- does the prosecution mean to suggest that they can speak on behalf of the entire population of this country?") Geoff From gbh at middlemarch.net Fri May 8 00:34:32 1998 From: gbh at middlemarch.net (gbh@middlemarch.net) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Stall during boot Message-ID: I recently installed an ethernet card on my Rhapsody/Intel machine. After installing the driver and rebooting, the computer hangs at this point in the boot process; Starting disk synchronozation Starting timed execution services WindowServer[316]: Netinfo timeout connecting to local domain, sleeping I tried hitting control-c a few times but nothing happened. What should be done to boot properly? --Greg From Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk Fri May 8 00:37:29 1998 From: Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk (mmalcolm crawford) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: DR2 review on Rhapnet In-Reply-To: <199805080715.AAA15023@smtp01.primenet.com> References: <199805080715.AAA15023@smtp01.primenet.com> Message-ID: <199805080737.IAA03665@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Geoff wrote: > >> The people violating NDA's well, Apple should slap them. > >> > >At the very least? > > I agree with you in spirit So, it seems, does the ePenguin him/herself. Normally I wouldn't forward an excerpt from a private email without asking permission first, however... In response to a mail I sent in which I wrote: "I am appalled that you have so clearly violated your NDA..." I got the reply: "You are right of course - we are not proud of it. It is not something we take lightly, ..." It seems to me that ePenguin knows right from wrong, and still chose wrong. Best wishes, mmalc. From yves at vlaanderen.net Fri May 8 01:51:57 1998 From: yves at vlaanderen.net (Yves De Muyter) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: <199805080421.AAA22525@digifix.com> Message-ID: >Joshua Marker wrote: >> > The existing market. >> > >> > : Sure, the G3 is a good machine, but there is always a high end market. >> > >> > The G3 is well-suited for higher-end markets. And there are the faster >> > motherboards and G4 that are coming up in a few months. I don't >> > understand the reasoning behind this comment. >> >> No, it absolutely is not. No SMP, ever. That completely obviates >> the possibility. > > > Uh, what exactly does this mean? Are you saying that you CAN'T have >an SMP G3 box ever? Backside cache is not SMP savvy. The G4 will probably deal with that. The 604e isn't that slow neither for an SMP box (even runs at 350 mhz) but it is getting hyped away by the G3... Yves ============================================ yves@sesuadra.org yves@vlaanderen.net From gtupar at buzz.rz.henkel.de Fri May 8 03:22:22 1998 From: gtupar at buzz.rz.henkel.de (Georg Tuparev) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9805081022.AA00279@buzz.henkel.de> You wrote: > >Typical Apple shortsightedness. What else would you expect from a company > >that still can't deliver a real OS for the Mac after 14 years? They > >screwed up taligent, > It's the question who exactly screwed up Taligent. Apple or I.B.M. ? Maybe > both of them... Different expectations maybe? Who knows... Look at the > state of OS/2. Good start, where is the product now? Folks, This discussion is off-topic again But to cut yet another speculations about the the death of Taligent: Taligent screwed up Taligent. Or someone ever thought that 1800 classes in 108 Frameworks running reasonably fast on Cray only was something else then a big mess? -- georg -- --- ------- Georg Tuparev InterPoint, Ceintuurbaan 198-I 1072 GC Amsterdam, The Netherlands Mobile: +31-655-798196 Hiroshima 45, Tschernobyl 86, Windows 95, Office 97 From nberch at db.lv Fri May 8 08:43:02 1998 From: nberch at db.lv (Nils Berzins) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: WWDC (off topic...) Message-ID: <199805081243.PAA05969@saulite> >>Does anybody know, is there a public list on the web where one can see, >>who >>is attending WWDC ? I think, it would be nice to know, who is going to be >>there (people from this list or rhapsody-dev), so when we see a familiar >>name on the badge we can say Hi, have some cup of coffee during the break >>and discuss Rhapsody face to face... >>If there is no such list, you are welcome to email me a short note and >>I'll >>try to compile a list of attendees and post it this Friday afternoon >>(european >>time). I'm leaving to SF this Saturday very early in the morning. Hi All, I got responses only from 3 persons. I hope that four of us are not going to be the only pepole there ;-) Malcolm Crawford Malcolm_Crawford@plsys.co.uk Jyrki Wahlstedt Jyrki.Wahlstedt@tisp.fi Jesse Sng jesse@metamediasys.com Nils Berzins nberch@db.lv ( "nberzins@hotmail.com" during the next week ) See you all in San Jose. Best Regards Nils From nberch at db.lv Fri May 8 08:48:21 1998 From: nberch at db.lv (Nils Berzins) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: WWDC (off topic...) Message-ID: <199805081248.PAA05986@saulite> Oops Sorry Malcolm ! I wrote you in instead of your boss... Here is the correct version: Paul Lynch Jyrki Wahlstedt Jyrki.Wahlstedt@tisp.fi Jesse Sng jesse@metamediasys.com Nils Berzins nberch@db.lv ( "nberzins@hotmail.com" during the next week ) See you all in San Jose. Best Regards Nils From sschuldt at mediaone.net Fri May 8 07:28:52 1998 From: sschuldt at mediaone.net (Steven W. Schuldt) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife References: <9805081022.AA00279@buzz.henkel.de> Message-ID: <9805081428.AA00250@helio.ne.mediaone.net> > Taligent screwed up Taligent. Or someone ever thought that 1800 classes in 108 Frameworks running reasonably fast on Cray only was something else then a big mess? > Hmm. How big is Java now? I did see a Taligent demo a few years back and it _was_ running on the most expensive, fridge-sized MP RS6000 IBM made and it was much slower than NS on an '030 cube. It struck me as the most awesome demonstration of just how far the world was willing to go to avoid conceding the OO crown to SJ and NeXT; no matter the cost in money or bloody, wasted man-years. - Steve Boston '98 +On +On From sschuldt at mediaone.net Fri May 8 07:32:41 1998 From: sschuldt at mediaone.net (Steven W. Schuldt) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Its Official: New Name for MS Windows NT 5.0 Message-ID: <9805081432.AA00264@helio.ne.mediaone.net> http://www.angelfire.com/sd/MoiraO/images/mswd.jpg From nberch at db.lv Fri May 8 10:12:45 1998 From: nberch at db.lv (Nils Berzins) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: WWDC (off topic...) last update Message-ID: <199805081412.RAA06386@saulite> Hi again, This is my last update. > David D. Herren herren@flannet.middlebury.edu > Paul Lynch > Jyrki Wahlstedt Jyrki.Wahlstedt@tisp.fi > Jesse Sng jesse@metamediasys.com > Nils Berzins nberch@db.lv ( "nberzins@hotmail.com" > during the next week ) Nils From aae460 at agora.ulaval.ca Fri May 8 08:19:48 1998 From: aae460 at agora.ulaval.ca (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: HW surprise: iMac; SW surprise: Rhapsody?? Message-ID: <199805081520.LAA00529@hermes.ulaval.ca> I don't know if everyone was as stunned as me when I've heard about the iMac: I'm so interested in Apple's future that I know every info/rumor site on Apple, MacOS and Rhapsody. And no, absolutely no, web site talked about anything related to the iMac. And now Rhapsody. What do we know about the actual state of Rhapsody?? I think that we simply know nothing! Look at the suppose leak from RhapNet about DR2... what did you learned from it?? There is simply nothing new about it... DR1 was released 6 months ago. The port from OS/Mach took less than that... So I would say: "be prepared to be really impressed about the current state of Rhapsody (aka DR2?). We now have proof that Apple really can keep a secret for a very long period of time (iMac). And we haven't seen any serious leak about Rhapsody since DR1. So, make your guesses... And remember that Rhapsody was first supposed to ship in January (premiere). So Rhapsody as it is now could simply ship! (and even better than that). (considering that Apple is on schedule, something I believe). So, what can we expect? Something better than MacOS, OS/Mach, Taligent, Copland, ..., and DR1. This is where 1+1+1!=3 but 4, 5 or more... I'm still waiting to know if my 601 will be supported by DR2 (wwdc release). If it is, Apple will receive as fast as mail can go a 500$US from me... 8-) L. Pelletier From Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk Fri May 8 09:12:22 1998 From: Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk (mmalcolm crawford) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: HW surprise: iMac; SW surprise: Rhapsody?? In-Reply-To: <199805081520.LAA00529@hermes.ulaval.ca> References: <199805081520.LAA00529@hermes.ulaval.ca> Message-ID: <199805081612.RAA03926@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Louis wrote: > And now Rhapsody. What do we know about the actual state of Rhapsody?? > I think that we simply know nothing! > We can make some fairly good guesses, though. > Look at the suppose leak from RhapNet about DR2... what did you learned > from it?? There is simply nothing new about it... > Which is why it made no sense whatsoever to run the story. (Actually there was one thing they said which was very interesting, and IMHO gave a definite pointer to where things are headed, but they skimmed over that...) > DR1 was released 6 months ago. The port from OS/Mach took less than that... > So I would say: "be prepared to be really impressed about the current state > of Rhapsody (aka DR2?). > There's an interesting question here -- what *would* impress people? I suspect that whenever whatever is released, the average onlooker will, at first glance, see little that might be counted as being impressive. Apple's stated goal is to make Rhapsody look and feel as much like MacOS as possible. If it does look and feel like MacOS, though, of course it's not going to look very impressive. If you see what I mean ;-> What's more likely to be seriously impressive is the underpinnings -- from the developer perspective I'd expect considerable progress, particularly on the integration of Apple technologies. Best wishes, mmalc. From rcfa at cubiculum.com Fri May 8 09:06:04 1998 From: rcfa at cubiculum.com (Ronald C.F. Antony) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: HW surprise: iMac; SW surprise: Rhapsody?? In-Reply-To: <199805081520.LAA00529@hermes.ulaval.ca> References: <199805081520.LAA00529@hermes.ulaval.ca> Message-ID: <9805081606.AA16855@kannix.cubiculum.com> > And no, absolutely no, web site talked about anything related to the iMac. It wasn't called iMac, but there were plenty of rumors about an low-end consumer Mac, an internet-appliance, etc. even Ellison, a board member was mentioning these sort of plans. In that context the iMac was not very surprising. Of course the details were, after all, nobody was talking about the particular design specs. On the other hand, the price is more than I expected. Given that it was supposed to be "low end, consumer oriented" and given that all the NC hype was always targeting the below $1000 market, I would have expected a suggested US retail of $999.- Now as far as Rhapsody goes, I wouldn't set my expectations too high. Of course, this is easy to say for me, given that I'm a long-time spoilt NeXTSTEP/OpenStep user. For many MacOS, Win*, and whatnot users, Rhapsody may well be the wake-up call of a lifetime, but we should not forget what many great things we have already gotten used to, distracted only by minor problems like lack of drivers, installation woes, or the lack of a few admin apps that are required in a non-corporate setup. I would guess that most of the additional effort will be spent on details, important details, but details nonetheless. Such as: better support for nomadic computing (NetInfo has a few hick-ups in that respect), better support for power management, drivers, drivers, drivers, and more drivers. And testing, testing and more testing. Remember, the smallest glitch in Rhapsody would be beaten to death by the press and would be interpreted as a sign of Rhapsody's failure in the marketplace. It is thus much more important for Rhapsody to be 150% bullet-proof than it is to add many additional eye-boggling features. Of course there could still be a few surprises: SMP could already be here, although it is expected for a future release, RenderMan support could be added, Adobe could have a whole suite of software ready that was secret and that would be launched concurrently with Rhapsody, transparent BlueBox might be reality, with MacOS apps mingling on the screen with Rhapsody apps w/o difference at first sight, etc. But all in all, I think we know the cornerstones of what will be Rhapsody. All the major things have been covered. Of course there COULD be a major surprise, but I think it's not wise to expect it, since otherwise even the smoothest Rhapsody that "only" offers what we know will come, will turn out to be disappointing, and that welcome, it does not deserve. Ronald ============================================================================== "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." G.B. Shaw | rcfa@cubiculum.com | NeXT-mail welcome From rmcassid at uci.edu Fri May 8 09:48:14 1998 From: rmcassid at uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife Message-ID: <199805081648.AA15660@e4e.oac.uci.edu> Scott Anguish had this to say on 5/7/1998 1:27 PM: > This prevents more companies from pulling an Intuit.. Intuit *had* to be a staged event. There's *no* way Bill could not know about the iMac and the press coverage of the return of Quicken was 10x the coverage of it's loss. Considering the timing, I think we should all give Steve and Bill two thumbs up for a great performance full of drama and suspense that didn't miss a beat... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Cassidy School of Engineering, UGSA UC Irvine -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Fri May 8 09:52:04 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: HW surprise: iMac; SW surprise: Rhapsody?? References: <9805081606.AA16855@kannix.cubiculum.com> Message-ID: <199805081652.LAA03294@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> The biggest 'surprise' for Monday is likely to be how Rhapsody fits in, what's up with MacOS YellowBox, when and if they OS's will merge in some way and how, etc. I don't think the specifics of Rhapsody itself will be too earth-shattering. Interesting, yes, and maybe somewhat surprising, but not huge. Some announcements of big-name Rhapsody support would be great, appreciated, and surprising, but not earth-shattering. There's been speculation on all this, but nobody has any idea. - Jon From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Fri May 8 10:01:59 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Games-related change in WWDC schedule Message-ID: <199805081702.MAA03306@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> No big news, this was posted to the uber mailing list and I thought Rhapsody developers might want to know: Chris De Salvo wrote: > Oh, please note that the WWDC schedule posted to apple.com had the games > API session listed on Thursday. This is incorrect. The schedule has been > updated. The Game API session is on Wednesday at 11:35am in Room C. This > is session 138. Hope to see you there. From rmcassid at uci.edu Fri May 8 10:06:10 1998 From: rmcassid at uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts Message-ID: <199805081706.AA18349@e4e.oac.uci.edu> Eugene Lee had this to say on 5/7/1998 6:11 PM: >The PPC-750 (you know it as the G3) is a descendent of the PPC-603, both >of which do not support the MEI cache-coherency protocol. But then how >does some upstart wet-behind-the-ears company come out with a platform >like the BeBox that supports SMP over dual 603s? It's called "software". It's also called "sucking". Even the Be hardware boys admit that BeBox SMP performance was not good, that software made it happen, but didn't make it work well. The whole point of SMP is to work well, as close to twice as fast as one chip as possible. The 750 just doesn't cut it. That's why IBM is still furthering the 604e line. They'll give us a SMP chip since they need one themselves. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Cassidy School of Engineering, UGSA UC Irvine -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rmcassid at uci.edu Fri May 8 09:54:28 1998 From: rmcassid at uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife Message-ID: <199805081654.AA16663@e4e.oac.uci.edu> Jesse Sng had this to say on 5/7/1998 5:36 PM: > >>I think this is right on the money. Apple hasn't explained why there is >>100BaseT in this thing (certainly don't need it for 2Mbps cable modem). > >Yeah.. they also haven't said anything about why you need a fast infra-red >port. Think about this - kids/corporate workers go out into the field, >gather data on their handheld devices, and then come back and beam all that >large amount of data into their iMacs - or even hook it up to the USB. Laptops and printers. HP doesn't have USB based printers, but they have IRDA based ones... Wires suck. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Cassidy School of Engineering, UGSA UC Irvine -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rmcassid at uci.edu Fri May 8 10:24:52 1998 From: rmcassid at uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: HW surprise: iMac; SW surprise: Rhapsody?? Message-ID: <199805081724.AA21171@e4e.oac.uci.edu> Louis Pelletier had this to say on 5/8/1998 8:27 AM: >Look at the suppose leak from RhapNet about DR2... what did you learned >from it?? There is simply nothing new about it... > >DR1 was released 6 months ago. The port from OS/Mach took less than that... >So I would say: "be prepared to be really impressed about the current state >of Rhapsody (aka DR2?). > >We now have proof that Apple really can keep a secret for a very long >period of time (iMac). And we haven't seen any serious leak about Rhapsody >since DR1. So, make your guesses... I would suggest tempering that enthusiasm for DR2 a bit. The iMac is a 2nd generation G3 system from Apple where Rhapsody is still getting all of it's guts shoved in. Right now, QT, Colorsync, Applescript, *drivers*, OpenGL, Java, and a mountain of bug and API fixes would be enough to have me hopping around my office like a 3 year old. I think OpenGL is the only surprise we might expect. And I think the existance of DR2 has been suggested so heavily by now that we can almost count on playing with it next week or soon thereafter. Unlike the iMac, there should be people around and about outside of Apple that have seen and may even now be running DR2. I think we'll be happy, but don't expect *too* much. -Bob Cassidy -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Cassidy School of Engineering, UGSA UC Irvine -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paul at eisusa.com Fri May 8 10:06:55 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: <199805081612.RAA03926@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1018 bytes Desc: not available Url : /mailman/archive/macosx-talk/attachments/19980508/53447e6e/attachment.bin From sal at panix.com Fri May 8 10:55:58 1998 From: sal at panix.com (Sal Denaro) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: HW surprise: iMac; SW surprise: Rhapsody?? In-Reply-To: <9805081606.AA16855@kannix.cubiculum.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 May 1998, Ronald C.F. Antony wrote: > Given that it was supposed to be "low end, consumer oriented" and > given that all the NC hype was always targeting the below $1000 market, > I would have expected a suggested US retail of $999.- There is something fishy about the 90 day pre-announce of the price. Also, the $1299 price is only $200 less than the price of the other G3 AIO. And the other AIO comes with 3 PCI slots, a floppy, a Zip drive and a bigger monitor. Also, the PC cloners now have 90 days to build a "iMac killer" bundle. Maybe the iMac price is a decoy, and when it ships for real the price will quickly drop into the sub $1k range. Maybe the $800 range. This would be a killer tactic, announce a "must have" product at a price point. Give the compition time to move to that pricepoint, and then lower your price at the last minute; before they can react. What the consumer would see is that you have a "must have" product, at a lower price than was first expected, and your competition has a bunch of higher priced (and lower margin) products that were quickly thrown together to react to "must have" product. The $64,000 question: "Is Steve evil and manipulative enough to come up with a plan like this?" -- sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro "The reality of the software business today is that if you find something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral From lavoie at cst.ca Fri May 8 11:02:21 1998 From: lavoie at cst.ca (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife In-Reply-To: <199805081654.AA16663@e4e.oac.uci.edu> Message-ID: At 10:08 -0700 5/8/1998, Robert Cassidy wrote: >Jesse Sng had this to say on 5/7/1998 5:36 PM: > >> >>>I think this is right on the money. Apple hasn't explained why there is >>>100BaseT in this thing (certainly don't need it for 2Mbps cable modem). >> >>Yeah.. they also haven't said anything about why you need a fast infra-red >>port. Think about this - kids/corporate workers go out into the field, >>gather data on their handheld devices, and then come back and beam all that >>large amount of data into their iMacs - or even hook it up to the USB. > >Laptops and printers. HP doesn't have USB based printers, but they have >IRDA based ones... Wires suck. IRDA sucks more. You you really want to carry your 40 pounds iMac in front of your printer to output your Read Me files? IRDA is there for a very simple reasons. Interchangability of data with hand held devices, like Palm Pilot, or the speculated Mac OS Lite device. Obviously, this doesn't have much value for consumer stuff. But, for the NC market, I speculate this has a purpose. A valuable one at that. Martin-Gilles Lavoie | "No! Try not. Do, or do not. Mac OS programmer, CS&T | There is no try." lavoie@cst.ca | -- Yoda on error handling From pat at qhp.queensu.ca Fri May 8 11:30:17 1998 From: pat at qhp.queensu.ca (Pat Taylor) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >This quote from Larry Ellison appears in today's MacNN http://www.macnn.com/ > >Are we going to run Rhapsody on these "digital appliances"? Mac classic >redux - is Apple abandoning the high end market that is paying their bills? I think the question you mean to ask is "could we run Rhapsody on these 'digital appliances?'" And the answer is almost indubitably "Yes." The iMac motherboard is an updated and simplified version of the motherboard found in every single G3 PowerMac. There is nothing about this "digital appliance" that makes it incapable of running Rhapsody ... heck, it's easily twice as powerful as my day-to-day system!!! High-end markets are defined by capability not by price ... the fact is that there is a steady migration downwards; where the high end once was defined by systems costing more than $10,000, you'll now find the high-end (in personal computing) at over $5,000. By next year, that might go down to $3,000. This digital appliance is more powerful than any PC released 2 years ago ... so yes, Rhapsody would cope with it. The amazing thing about the iMac is that it actually seems have a very sweet margin given the power/price ... I'd be surprised if it didn't have room to go down another $200 easily. Wouldn't it be interesting to know how many people actually populate their PCI slots or even use their floppy disk drives (I used mine 3 times in the last year ... all in the same week ... and all my PCI slots are free)? [Incidentally, the only device that I'd probably miss switching to an iMac would be my Zip drive (though not because of any love for it but because it is so standard) ... but that and other devices will be available on USB since parallel ports are being phased out in favour of this new serial architecture. As well, there is the infra-red communications port that supports up to 4 Mbps] >Or is this just another stupid statement designed to fool the >competitiors. Never mind the developers, you will only need a modern >version of MacPaint and MacWrite on these appliances anyway. I don't think Apple abandons developers and high-end users by having a "digital appliance" strategy. Steve plainly said that he sees Apple developing a 4 product line strategy ... and he clearly divided them between professional users and consumers. BTW, it's easy to make light of MacPaint and MacWrite nowadays, but that's looking at it through revisionist eyes. At that time, those applications blew away the feature set of ANY PC program on the market ... and came free with each Mac (or were actually quite expensive but came with a beautiful beige carrying case ;^) At any rate, there isn't any application that doesn't have specific hardware needs that won't run on an iMac AFAIK. >Oh, and can we make toast with a digital appliance? Anybody have a Rhap >app for setting light or dark? Different appliances for different needs ... remember, to a person that only has a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail. Cheers, Patrick ______________________________________________________________ Patrick Taylor Kingston, Ontario, CANADA mailto:pat@qhp.queensu.ca http://www.stepwise.com "These are my principles, if you don't like them ... I've got others." --Groucho Marx From rcfa at cubiculum.com Fri May 8 11:26:11 1998 From: rcfa at cubiculum.com (Ronald C.F. Antony) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9805081826.AA17198@kannix.cubiculum.com> > >>>I think this is right on the money. Apple hasn't explained why there is > >>>100BaseT in this thing (certainly don't need it for 2Mbps cable modem). There needs to be some networking. Networking is ubiquious. The same machine can serve as a standalone low-end home computer or it can be the computer that's in the den, each kid's room, etc. while daddy has a big PowerMac server in his home office. You want networking. Cable modems and ISDN terminal adaptors often only have an ethernet interface. Why 100Mb instead of 10? The cost difference is not even worth mentioning. Most modern ethernet chips auto-configure to both speeds anyway. So why bother with slowing down the thing? And if some companies decide to use these things as thin clients, they too will need networking. There is no need for an either-or explanation. I think what has been overlooked lately, and where Ellison is aiming at with his NC and various "information appliance" quotes, is this: The average computer user is still using his machine for exactly the same thing as people who bought the original Mac 128. Computers, even so called low end machines, are so much more powerful now than then, that for most purposes the machines people buy are overkill. The only reason people don't realize they have more powerful computers than they need, is bloat-ware and crappy, inefficient OS software like certain versions of MacOS and all versions of various MS OS software. If you look at how well OS-MACH and NS run on antique 040 hardware, then you will have to realize that even Rhapsody will scream on the iMac: a PPC CPU, 4GB harddrive and 32 or 64 MB RAM (I forgot how much comes standard), are plenty to run Rhapsody comfortably for all but the most demanding applications. There is really very little "low-end" left in so called low-end machines. > >>Yeah.. they also haven't said anything about why you need a fast infra-red > >>port. Think about this - kids/corporate workers go out into the field, > >>gather data on their handheld devices, and then come back and beam all > >>that large amount of data into their iMacs - or even hook it up to the > >>USB. Like surfing the web with a wireless keyboard, home automation with an IR interface, printers, wireless networking (with an IR eye installed in each room you can carry the iMac into any room in the house and "be connected"), etc. IRDA has plenty of potential uses. Plus of course all the PDA stuff, wireless modems that you put on the desk but don't have to connect and disconnect if you carry the iMac elsewhere. Besides, it's cheap and its standard feature these days on pretty much all computers. Why limit the machine by leaving it out? Ronald ============================================================================== "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." G.B. Shaw | rcfa@cubiculum.com | NeXT-mail welcome From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Fri May 8 11:45:01 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote References: Message-ID: <199805081845.NAA03371@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Pat wrote: > Paul wrote: > >Oh, and can we make toast with a digital appliance? Anybody have a Rhap > >app for setting light or dark? > > Different appliances for different needs ... remember, to a person that > only has a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail. Also keep in mind that there are professional versions of appliances. For example, fast-food restaurants use normal-looking microwaves that are 2-3 times as powerful as the consumer models. (Be *very* careful when making popcorn in one of these.) Also, Paul, please recall that Ellison's track record as a prophet isn't very good at all. - Jon From dmoore at gage.com Fri May 8 11:45:24 1998 From: dmoore at gage.com (Doug Moore) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9805081845.AA06864@leinie.gage.com> Did Jobs kill your dog or something? Look at what's been going on out there on Infinate Loop. Jobs has been making a lot of decisions to keep Apple pared down and focused on achieving it's goals for a change, Avie is holed up somewhere (has anyone seen or heard of anything from him since MacWorld Tokyo?) surely working on something, and what of Jon Rubinstein? Haven't heard boo from him either. Since the Turbo NeXT systems, has Rubinstein worked on anything other than SMP systems? This group has always delivered, if anything they've delivered more than the world was ready for... I for one take the silence as A Good Thing. They are busy, doing what they do best. Rhapsody may not develop into what we each have envisioned it to be. Personally I think it'll be better, certainly different from what I hoped for even 6 months ago. And I took Ernie P's April 1, 1997 letter seriously... I for one can't wait to get on the plane Sunday night and go find out for myself what they've been doing since last August. Sorry for the lack of Rhapsody content, my chip tolerance is very low at the moment. How about a Newton technology based handwriting recognition framework? Doug Moore You wrote: > This quote from Larry Ellison appears in today's MacNN > > "You really haven't seen Steve's products yet. He picked the best of the > [existing] products and made some decisions to simplify things. He > really killed about 80 percent of the products. But you're going to see > > the products Steve originated come out very shortly, and Apple will be > > back to innovating. Apple's future is in creating digital > appliances--low-cost, very easy-to-use computers in the range of $500 to > $1,500." > > Are we going to run Rhapsody on these "digital appliances"? Mac classic > redux - is Apple abandoning the high end market that is paying their bills? > > Or is this just another stupid statement designed to fool the competitiors. > Never mind the developers, you will only need a modern version of MacPaint > and MacWrite on these appliances anyway. > > Oh, and can we make toast with a digital appliance? Anybody have a Rhap app > for setting light or dark? > > > Paul > From sanguish at digifix.com Fri May 8 12:55:47 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Announcement Teaser, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805081955.PAA25735@digifix.com> gfair@uniserve.com (Graham Fair) wrote: > >New logo? > > No, its a new CAN!!! No longer the half-and-half red and blue with > white stripes separating them..... > No, that wasn't a new logo, but another clue. It was the same translucent color as the iMac is... From sanguish at digifix.com Fri May 8 13:00:12 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805082000.QAA25748@digifix.com> Martin-Gilles Lavoie wrote: > >Laptops and printers. HP doesn't have USB based printers, but they have > >IRDA based ones... Wires suck. > > IRDA sucks more. You you really want to carry your 40 pounds iMac in front > of your printer to output your Read Me files? > Why would you need to? A properly placed IDRA port would solve much of that... In cases where it doesn't an IR extender (a staple in the home entertainment area) would fix that problem.. If you're printer is any distance away, or is shared, then you have eithernet.. > IRDA is there for a very simple reasons. Interchangability of data with > hand held devices, like Palm Pilot, or the speculated Mac OS Lite device. > Obviously, this doesn't have much value for consumer stuff. But, for the > NC market, I speculate this has a purpose. A valuable one at that. From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Fri May 8 13:10:43 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife References: <199805082000.QAA25748@digifix.com> Message-ID: <199805082010.PAA03435@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Scott wrote: > Martin-Gilles Lavoie wrote: > > > IRDA sucks more. You you really want to carry your 40 pounds iMac in front > > of your printer to output your Read Me files? > > > > Why would you need to? A properly placed IDRA port would solve much > of that... In cases where it doesn't an IR extender (a staple in the home > entertainment area) would fix that problem.. > Or, you buy an IrDA transceiver that plugs into the USB port and gives you some more placement flexibility. - Jon From paul at eisusa.com Fri May 8 13:01:43 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:18 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: <9805081845.AA06864@leinie.gage.com> Message-ID: At 11:47 AM -0700 5/8/98, Doug Moore wrote: >Did Jobs kill your dog or something? > No but he killed MacOS liscensing. We don't know if he will license PPC Rhapsody. He had a vision for the Mac the precluded, hard disks, more than 128K of memory, color, and expansion slots. There's a market for iMac, but don't stunt Rhapsody and high end Macs >Look at what's been going on out there on Infinate Loop. Jobs has been >making a lot of decisions to keep Apple pared down and focused on achieving >it's goals for a change, Avie is holed up somewhere (has anyone seen or >heard >of anything from him since MacWorld Tokyo?) surely working on something, and >what of Jon Rubinstein? Haven't heard boo from him either. Since the Turbo >NeXT systems, has Rubinstein worked on anything other than SMP systems? I certainly hope the're working on PPC SMP systems. But those aren't $500 to $1500 internet appliances. >This group has always delivered, if anything they've delivered more than the >world was ready for... The NeXT computer was a market flop. NeXT OS has a dismal market share. NeXT hardware was at the trailing edge of the performance envelope and it was overpriced too. Hopefully the noises about Rhapsody not being a suitable server OS are just that. >Rhapsody may not develop into what we each have envisioned it to be. >Personally I think it'll be better, certainly different from what I hoped >for >even 6 months ago. And I took Ernie P's April 1, 1997 letter seriously... >I for one can't wait to get on the plane Sunday night and go find out for >myself what they've been doing since last August. What should it be? An alternative to WinNT that works, with SMP support, that is (almost?) as easy to use as a Mac, and can be run on third party PPC, PeeCee, Sparc and other hardware, with robust networking and server capabilities. There's no technical reason that it can't be all that. There may be Apple management reasons that it won't be all that. Paul Paul Nicholson Electronic Imaging Systems, Inc. TEL 805 532 1068 5148 Commerce Avenue, Unit F FAX 805 532 1065 Moorpark, CA 93021 U.S.A. paul@eisusa.com http://www.eisusa.com From paul at eisusa.com Fri May 8 13:27:37 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:32 AM -0700 5/8/98, Pat Taylor wrote: >BTW, it's easy to make light of MacPaint and MacWrite nowadays, but that's >looking at it through revisionist eyes. At that time, those applications >blew away the feature set of ANY PC program on the market ... and came free >with each Mac (or were actually quite expensive but came with a beautiful >beige carrying case ;^) At any rate, there isn't any application that >doesn't have specific hardware needs that won't run on an iMac AFAIK. They were great programs, but they were not very useful to business, and that's where Apple lost and (is still losing) the war. Businesses wanted machines with hard disks and more than 128K of memory, with floppy drives that could read industry disk formats. They did not want to output 72 dpi clip art on an ImageWriter, some people did obviously. Steve knew better, he knew that people did not want a computer with those things, after all they wanted an appliance. Don't get me wrong, I think the iMac is good for some markets, but the iMac is not going to get Macs accepted by business. A full featured Rhapsody that can be used as a server or a workstation and runs on generic PPC, PeeCee, and Sparc (and other maybe) hardware (and does not crash like MacOS) will if anything ever can. This is not the direction the rumor winds have been blowing lately. Paul Paul Nicholson Electronic Imaging Systems, Inc. TEL 805 532 1068 5148 Commerce Avenue, Unit F FAX 805 532 1065 Moorpark, CA 93021 U.S.A. paul@eisusa.com http://www.eisusa.com From lavoie at cst.ca Fri May 8 13:32:41 1998 From: lavoie at cst.ca (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife In-Reply-To: <199805082000.QAA25748@digifix.com> References: Message-ID: At 16:00 -0400 5/8/1998, Scott Anguish wrote: >Martin-Gilles Lavoie wrote: > >> >Laptops and printers. HP doesn't have USB based printers, but they have >> >IRDA based ones... Wires suck. >> >> IRDA sucks more. You you really want to carry your 40 pounds iMac in front >> of your printer to output your Read Me files? >> > > Why would you need to? A properly placed IDRA port would solve much >of that... In cases where it doesn't an IR extender (a staple in the home >entertainment area) would fix that problem.. > > If you're printer is any distance away, or is shared, then you have >eithernet.. Think about it. A home computer at low cost to fit households with low computer budgets. And those same folks would have a 10BT ethernet-based printer? I think not. On the other hand, a 10BT non-PostScript printer could be somewhat afordable. But only usefull (really) if used from a PS-aware OS (Rhapsody, for example). but these OSes aren't even targetted for the low-end market anyhow. USB printer, plausible, but not available for now (making it a moot solution). Though, I suspect Apple would be working on that. IR cable extender? Dont cables suck anymore? I'm just not convince this "appliance" really is meant/designed for the consumer market. Yes, it's a good as-such platform, but I think it's really meant for something more... Allison. Martin-Gilles Lavoie | "No! Try not. Do, or do not. Mac OS programmer, CS&T | There is no try." lavoie@cst.ca | -- Yoda on error handling From daniel.green at Sun.COM Fri May 8 13:43:31 1998 From: daniel.green at Sun.COM (Daniel L. Green) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Rhapsody detour according to Mac The Knife References: <9805080506.AA15427@kannix.cubiculum.com> Message-ID: <35536E72.1E85D6DB@sun.com> Jonathan Hendry writes: > "All warfare is based on deception. When able to attack, we must seem > unable. When active, we must seem inactive... hold out bait to entice > the enemy. Feign disorder" > - -- from "The art of war" by Sun Tzu > Or, re-spun in Bruce Webster's _Art of 'Ware_ translation of the work: "Successful product development requires stealth and misdirection. Hide you strengths first and appear to be weak; when actively developing, show no signs. (p. 14)" It seems like Apple is taking a few pages from either/both books, to their credit. Best regards, -- DanG Daniel L. Green From herren at flannet.middlebury.edu Fri May 8 13:49:43 1998 From: herren at flannet.middlebury.edu (David Herren) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: DR1 on Compaq Deskpro all IDE Message-ID: Our former Apple rep, now our Compaq rep (but nonetheless, a really nice guy...) just sent us a Compaq Deskpro for evaluation. We're in the market for 8 new Intel boxes and if possible, I'd like to give Jim the business (regardless of my sentiments for Compaq--he's got a family to feed and he's done a good job for us over the years). Anyway, this thing has an Intel embedded IDE controller for the drive and CD. None of the drivers or combinations thereof that we have tried work. Either we are told it can't find the drives, or it immediately system panics after locating the drives and reboots. We never get the opportunity to format or partition the drive. Any suggestions? Since I'll be leaving for WWDC tomorrow at 7am EDT, if you have any suggestions, would you be so kind as to copy them to: jay_swan@flannet.middlebury.edu Jay will be covering things here while I'm away, and we really need to make a purchasing decision in the next week. Many thanks. -- David D. Herren www.cet.middlebury.edu/herren Assoc. Dir. for Tech. & Instruction herren@flannet.middlebury.edu Center for Educational Technology voice: (802)443-5746 Middlebury College, Middlebury, VT 05753 fax: (802)443-2053 From Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk Fri May 8 13:48:43 1998 From: Malcolm_Crawford at plsys.co.uk (mmalcolm crawford) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805082048.VAA04105@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Paul wrote: > Don't get me wrong, I think the iMac is good for some markets, but the iMac > is not going to get Macs accepted by business. A full featured Rhapsody > that can be used as a server or a workstation and runs on generic PPC, > PeeCee, and Sparc (and other maybe) hardware (and does not crash like > MacOS) will if anything ever can. This is not the direction the rumor winds > have been blowing lately. > If you extracted your head from your backside maybe you'd feel the breath of a sweeter breeze. Have you read any of the WWW pages on devworld.apple.com listing the WWDC conference tracks, sessions etc? mmalc. From karl at ensuing.com Fri May 8 14:04:01 1998 From: karl at ensuing.com (karl@ensuing.com) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: DR1 on Compaq Deskpro all IDE Message-ID: <6ivs01$vif@satva.ensuing.com> In article herren@flannet.middlebury.edu (David Herren) writes: > > Either we are told it can't find the drives, or it immediately > system panics after locating the drives and > reboots. We never get the opportunity to format or partition the drive. I had this happen and installed the OS from CD onto HD using a seperate machine. When I installed the hard drive back in the offending machine on a lark, lo and behold it worked just fine. -- --K2 karl@ensuing.com (Karl Kraft) OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer: cogitamus alius. From ssl at istar.ca Fri May 8 14:09:51 1998 From: ssl at istar.ca (Ed Sacharuk) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: HW surprise: iMax; SW surprise: Rhapsody? Message-ID: Regarding all the speculation out there on Rhapsody and the warnings from some to keep our expectations down, I agree. Given my understanding of how Steve Jobs, Avie Tevanian, et al, operate, I don't expect much. Just one tiny little thing really: something INSANELY GREAT. (Those of you who are lucky enough to be there, don't forget that we expect a full report.) From sal at panix.com Fri May 8 14:14:21 1998 From: sal at panix.com (Sal Denaro) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: <199805082048.VAA04105@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 May 1998, mmalcolm crawford wrote: > Paul wrote: > > that can be used as a server or a workstation and runs on generic PPC, > > PeeCee, and Sparc (and other maybe) hardware (and does not crash like > > MacOS) will if anything ever can. This is not the direction the rumor winds > > have been blowing lately. > Have you read any of the WWW pages on devworld.apple.com listing the WWDC > conference tracks, sessions etc? Malcolm, with all due respect, you are 100% off the mark. He was clearly talking about Rhapsody _Rumors_ and not Rhapsody _Facts_. In the wonderful land of make-believe; Rhapsody has morphed from server to client to server to cold fuision device to NC server to palmtop. The "rumor winds" change from day to day, if not from minute to minute. They vary from "Rhapsody canceled" to "Rhaspody is a server" to "Rhapsody is a client" based on the position of the stars, the tides and what Mac-the-Knife had for lunch. Meanwhile, here on plain old planet earth, we simple work-a-day programmers and sysadmins have kept the same veiw on Rhapsody. It will be a client *AND* a server. It will be used for development of Apps that run on Rhapsody, Windows and MacOS. It will be used by students who will get it a low price. We simple minded programmers are soooo dull. We read what Apple said about Rhapsody back when DR1 shipped and knew exactly what Rhapsody was. When those WWDC catalogs shipped, we saw all those YellowBox and WebObjects sessions and knew that Apple hasn't scraped Rhapsody. Gosh are we dull. We didn't even panic or whine. Yawn. Gee, I sure wish I could get a job in the land of rumors and see one of those cool Rhapsody-powered cold-fuision anti-gravity devices. Do they come in iMac translucent green? -- sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro "The reality of the software business today is that if you find something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral From sanguish at digifix.com Fri May 8 14:16:57 1998 From: sanguish at digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: HW surprise: iMax; SW surprise: Rhapsody? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805082117.RAA26510@digifix.com> ssl@istar.ca (Ed Sacharuk) wrote: > Regarding all the speculation out there on Rhapsody and the warnings from > some to keep our expectations down, I agree. Given my understanding of > how Steve Jobs, Avie Tevanian, et al, operate, I don't expect much. Just > one tiny little thing really: > > something INSANELY GREAT. > > (Those of you who are lucky enough to be there, don't forget that we expect > a full report.) Once again, let me say that Stepwise will be covering the event from the floor, and from the perspective of the full time Rhapsody developer (not a Reporter).. Check www.stepwise.com daily for all the goodies.. From pat at qhp.queensu.ca Fri May 8 14:35:17 1998 From: pat at qhp.queensu.ca (Pat Taylor) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >At 11:32 AM -0700 5/8/98, Pat Taylor wrote: > >>BTW, it's easy to make light of MacPaint and MacWrite nowadays, but that's >>looking at it through revisionist eyes. At that time, those applications >>blew away the feature set of ANY PC program on the market ... and came free >>with each Mac (or were actually quite expensive but came with a beautiful >>beige carrying case ;^) At any rate, there isn't any application that >>doesn't have specific hardware needs that won't run on an iMac AFAIK. Paul Nicholson wrote: >They were great programs, but they were not very useful to business, and >that's where Apple lost and (is still losing) the war. Businesses wanted >machines with hard disks and more than 128K of memory, with floppy drives >that could read industry disk formats. They did not want to output 72 dpi >clip art on an ImageWriter, some people did obviously. Steve knew better, >he knew that people did not want a computer with those things, after all >they wanted an appliance. Programs back in 1984 just weren't terribly useful PERIOD. While applications have succumbed to bloat in recent years, WordPerfect back then was hardly a useful product ... but no one expected better (until MacWrite came out with WYSIWYG and fonts!). Think back at the mid-eighties again ... the pretty much the first commercially available laser printer came out at the same time as the Mac (from Hewlett Packard), but didn't get widespread use in PCs until about 1989! In fact, 1993 was the first year the laser printer was treated as a consumer item. The Imagewriter was actually pretty close to state-of-the-art at the time. As for hard drives, these didn't become common business items for another year or two after the Mac came out ... I know several people that still used a dual floppy setup in their PC as late as 1991. 128K was a bit skimpy ... but consider that the first IBM PC was released with only 64K. At the same time as Apple, PC makers were releasing PCs with only 128K and their floppies could only store 320K. Even as late as 1987, Kaypro was releasing 386s without hard drives. Back in 1984, you could add a 10 MB hard drive to a PC but that would double its cost to over $6000. The fact is that the 128K Mac was crippled but only by later standards, not the ones of the time. If no one used hard drives, then not having the ability to add one was hardly fool-hardy. Check out Byte's Blasts from the Past to be shocked at how far we've come. >Don't get me wrong, I think the iMac is good for some markets, but the iMac >is not going to get Macs accepted by business. A full featured Rhapsody >that can be used as a server or a workstation and runs on generic PPC, >PeeCee, and Sparc (and other maybe) hardware (and does not crash like >MacOS) will if anything ever can. Ahhh ... the opportunity to bring it back to Rhapsody! I think we can look at this as a two-pronged strategy ... iMac alone might not be enough to get into business, but the combination of Rhapsody/Yellow Box on servers and workstations with iMacs as clients is certainly more than enough. The iMac shouldn't be looked at as a regular Mac minus, but rather as an NC plus. The Mac has all the applications that JavaStations don't plus the ability to integrate with Windows NT Servers (DAVE, Citrix's WinFrame, etc) and run both Java (theoretically) and PC software (through emulation). Again, though ... there is nothing inherent in the iMac that makes it incapable of running Rhapsody. So a pretty fancy workstation for $1300 (plus the cost of Rhapsody) isn't something I'd scoff at ... >This is not the direction the rumor winds >have been blowing lately. I think rumour winds break, they don't blow ... Cheers, Patrick ______________________________________________________________ Patrick Taylor Kingston, Ontario, CANADA mailto:pat@qhp.queensu.ca http://www.stepwise.com "These are my principles, if you don't like them ... I've got others." --Groucho Marx From rcfa at cubiculum.com Fri May 8 14:19:34 1998 From: rcfa at cubiculum.com (Ronald C.F. Antony) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9805082119.AA17607@kannix.cubiculum.com> > The NeXT computer was a market flop. NeXT OS has a dismal market share. > NeXT hardware was at the trailing edge of the performance envelope and it > was overpriced too. Hopefully the noises about Rhapsody not being a > suitable server OS are just that. Every once in a while I have counter revisionist history. The NeXT computers were not trailing the performance envelope when they were introduced. When the original 030 cube was introduced, SUN was shipping the 3/80 and 3/60 as current models and they were slower than the NeXTcube. (Of course several reviewers and customers were stupid enough to run 8MB/OD-only systems, which swapped like hell onto a device too slow to be useful as a swapdisk, and thus had the impression of a slow machine.). When the 040 NeXT were introduced, SUN's current model was the SparcStation 1, when the turbo came out, it was the SparcStation 2. In both cases the NeXT machines were very competitive for the price in terms of performance. It is only then when APPLE/IBM/Motorola fucked up NeXT's products by doing the PPC alliance and pulling the plug on the 88k line on which NeXT was planning its future when things got stuck in the mud. PPC wasn't ready, and 88k was marked with the stamp of demise. NeXT had nowhere to go. That, in combination with NCubes failure to deliver the JPEG chip according to the specs, which turned the NeXTdimension into a still birth, spelled the end of NeXT's hardware. As for NeXT software being a market failure, that's BS. NeXTSTEP sold well, given the market situation. Anyone who expected NeXT to conquer more than a market niche was unrealistic. Check out how much difficulty Apple has to compete with MS, and Apple was many orders of magnituded bigger than NeXT. So who expects NeXT to catch on and become a mass market product? Probably the same people who think Be has a chance. Forget it. Software counts. If you don't have the MS-Office and Adobe and and Quarks of the world on your boat, you are screwed in the mass market, regardless how good you are in technical respects. Where technology and speed to delivery mattered, NeXT had a big success, which is why they ended up in the MCCA niche. And that's about all that could be realistically expected, as the examples of QNX, Geo, DR-DOS, etc. show: it's not that these OS could not have served a general purpose role, but barrier of entry against MS is too high, which is why they all occupy one or the other niche market. Blaming NeXT and/or Jobs for this "failure" is just not quite fair. Rhapsody, regardless what shape it takes, has a better chance, due to the size of Apple and the fact that all very important software is availabe on the Mac platform and can at least be run in the BlueBox if not natively. This gives Rhapsody an advantage that NS/OS only could dream about. Ronald ============================================================================== "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." G.B. Shaw | rcfa@cubiculum.com | NeXT-mail welcome From rcfa at cubiculum.com Fri May 8 14:35:09 1998 From: rcfa at cubiculum.com (Ronald C.F. Antony) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9805082135.AA17648@kannix.cubiculum.com> > Don't get me wrong, I think the iMac is good for some markets, but the iMac > is not going to get Macs accepted by business. I wouldn't say that. Businesses are very much concerned with the security threads that removable media pose, including the unauthorized installation of pirated software, computer viruses, theft of sensitive trade secrets, etc. Also the cost of computers for simple clerical work has grown too much, as well as the maintenance and admin costs. There is no need for an expensive PentiumII desktop on a data-entry or inventory control desk. There is a big demand for computers that can be centrally administered (NetInfo) and that can run regular productivity apps (BlueBox), client-server custom apps (YB/Rhapsody/WebObjects) while all relevant information is supplied by network servers (home directories, web servers, PDO/EOF based dynamic business applications). All these applications can benefit from a simple, no-maintenance appliance like computer like the iMac. Take for example hotel: have a few real servers in the back office, then you can put iMacs at the front desk for reservations, in the kitchen for room service. If there were iMac versions with touch-screens, then they would make great POS systems in the hotel restaurant, etc. The iMac has everything that a computer for mostjobs needs. Most computer work in the enterprise doesn't need external storage like floppies, etc. Of course a publishing bureau that needs to exchange artwork with customers and print shops will want a different computer, but nobody said that the current PowerMac like systems would go away. The iMac will lower the entry cost, both in purchase as well as in maintenance that is required for a Mac standalone or network system while still being perfectly capable of running Rhapsody. > A full featured Rhapsody > that can be used as a server or a workstation and runs on generic PPC, > PeeCee, and Sparc (and other maybe) hardware (and does not crash like > MacOS) will if anything ever can. This is not the direction the rumor winds > have been blowing lately. Unfortunately, I have to agree, that things have been a bit quiet on that front. Too much "one OS" and "Rhapsody as server" noise and not enough "Rhapsody: from the laptop to the enterprise server a single OS" and also not enough "YB from palmtop to Win* to DEC-Alpha, one programming and API style". I hope that will change as more products are actually shipping and as we hear the speeches at WWDC. Ronald ============================================================================== "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." G.B. Shaw | rcfa@cubiculum.com | NeXT-mail welcome From paul at eisusa.com Fri May 8 14:38:00 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: <199805082048.VAA04105@pheasant.plsys.co.uk> Message-ID: Paul, >If you extracted your head from your backside maybe you'd feel the breath of >a sweeter breeze. That's a great comeback ;<). >Have you read any of the WWW pages on devworld.apple.com listing the WWDC >conference tracks, sessions etc? Yes, I just learned about the Apple masters and how how Bonington took his solar-powered Apple IIc to Mt. Everest's Camp 2 at 22,500 feet for logistics planning and communications, his use of PowerBook systems on subsequent ascents, and plans for using his Power Macintosh G3 on his upcoming Sepu Kangri expedition. I didn't see any of these people running a 24x7 server, an accounts recievable application, a gate array simulation, or a process controller, all things which you can do using NT. My Mac still crashes daily - I'm still waiting, have not given up yet. Paul From rhapsody at willamesd.k12.or.us Fri May 8 14:43:36 1998 From: rhapsody at willamesd.k12.or.us (rhapsody) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >At 11:47 AM -0700 5/8/98, Doug Moore wrote: >>Did Jobs kill your dog or something? >> >No but he killed MacOS liscensing. We don't know if he will license PPC >Rhapsody. He had a vision for the Mac the precluded, hard disks, more than >128K of memory, color, and expansion slots. There's a market for iMac, but >don't stunt Rhapsody and high end Macs there's something to be said for liscensing rhapsody, but i was 100% behind killing macos liscensing. 1) they bit into apple's own backyard, killing their already diminishing market share. 2) the cloners (i.e. power computing) were fighting apple's attempt to raise the liscense price so there was no way apple could make a profit liscensing. 3) the machines were CRAP! i have to support my agency's 5 power computing machines they purchased recently; and they crash more than any other machine we have, macs and pee cees. From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Fri May 8 14:53:26 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: iMac floppies solved Message-ID: <199805082153.QAA03510@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/980508/imation_2_1.html Next problem? From pat at qhp.queensu.ca Fri May 8 15:05:55 1998 From: pat at qhp.queensu.ca (Pat Taylor) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote Message-ID: Paul Nicholson wrote: >They were great programs, but they were not very useful to business, and >that's where Apple lost and (is still losing) the war. Businesses wanted >machines with hard disks and more than 128K of memory, with floppy drives >that could read industry disk formats. They did not want to output 72 dpi >clip art on an ImageWriter, some people did obviously. Steve knew better, >he knew that people did not want a computer with those things, after all >they wanted an appliance. Just as another historical perspective on 128 K systems, in July 1982 (when the original Macintosh was in development), this piece came out in Byte Magazine: >Another story discussed using virtual memory to give >your PC 1 MB of storage. We wrote: "Nobody expects >a system to actually have a megabyte of on-line storage." So Steve wasn't actually very arrogant ... that was the state of computing at the time. The problem isn't that Steve forced computer users to live with his vision, it's just that the technology wasn't there at the time to really create an information appliance. He came close though ... Today, Apple has an advantage in that it controls both the hardware and software parts of the equation. The iMac and its successors are the hardware part of the information appliance equation. The Yellow Box (whether hosted on Mach or some future improved lite version of the MacOS) is the software part ... Besides, if the iMac is the low-end, I can't wait to see the high-end! Jon Rubenstein is best known for his cutting edge work on workstations (dual PPCs for FirePower) ... I can only begin to imagine what he and his engineers are putting together to challenge Wintel. Cheers, Patrick ______________________________________________________________ Patrick Taylor Kingston, Ontario, CANADA mailto:pat@qhp.queensu.ca http://www.stepwise.com "These are my principles, if you don't like them ... I've got others." --Groucho Marx From gsawyer at gage.com Fri May 8 15:15:42 1998 From: gsawyer at gage.com (Gregory Sawyer) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9805082215.AA07814@leinie.gage.com> Paul Nicholson wrote >>Have you read any of the WWW pages on devworld.apple.com listing the WWDC >>conference tracks, sessions etc? >Yes, I just learned about the Apple masters and how how Bonington took his >solar-powered Apple IIc to Mt. Everest's Camp 2 at 22,500 feet for >logistics planning and communications, his use of PowerBook systems on >subsequent ascents, and plans for using his Power Macintosh G3 on his >upcoming Sepu Kangri expedition. Hmmm....That's interesting. I just looked at the conference agenda and I saw stuff like: Tuesday: 2:00 3:15 Yellow Box: The Foundation Kit in Depth. I didn't see anything about Everest in there at all. Far as I know, the only thing going on up there (according to As It Happens) is that a bunch of Canadiens are cleaning up the place. Hmmm. Perhaps I should turn around and use my NT box to look. Maybe there's a sinister plot by Apple that whenever you hit the site with OmniWeb, you get all this happiness about Rhapsody, but for Real Folk using a Real O/S like NT, you get the Real Scoop. WWDC co-sponsored by REI. Can't wait for that Multitasking piton hammer. >I didn't see any of these people running a 24x7 server, an accounts >recievable application, a gate array simulation, or a process controller, >all things which you can do using NT. Nah, they must be. According to the head of the Cleanup Crew, he can't leave Base Camp to get up to some of the higher camps because that would cost (that I recall) about $10K. Now how would he know that unless he got himself a nifty Access database that he can pump stuff into Excell on NT? Funny, you can also do that on a VAX 780 running VMS... >My Mac still crashes daily - I'm still waiting, have not given up yet. My VAX rarely crashed. Come to think of it, neither does my Intel running OpenStep/Mach, unless I do something phenominally stoopid with EOF like attempting to return a cartesian result set between three 100K+ row tables....THAT will torch it real pretty. Amazingly, while try to munge a single 33K row table in Access under NT, I crashed an average of once an hour. Try doing an EXISTS corrolated subquery in Access. Go ahead. "All of which you can do using NT." Yeah right. >Paul --Gregory From devguy at zerologic.com Fri May 8 17:09:49 1998 From: devguy at zerologic.com (devguy) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote Message-ID: <199805082313.SAA30465@grunt.meetmeonline.com> At 5/8/98 3:16 PM Sal Denaro said: >Gee, I sure wish I could get a job in the land of rumors and see one of >those cool Rhapsody-powered cold-fuision anti-gravity devices. Do they >come in iMac translucent green? Kick butt. :) From rmcassid at uci.edu Fri May 8 16:11:04 1998 From: rmcassid at uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: HW surprise: iMac; SW surprise: Rhapsody?? Message-ID: <199805082311.AA09090@e4e.oac.uci.edu> Sal Denaro had this to say on 5/8/1998 10:59 AM: >The $64,000 question: "Is Steve evil and manipulative enough to come >up with a plan like this?" Oh, most definately. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Cassidy School of Engineering, UGSA UC Irvine -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Fri May 8 16:18:36 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Dev program expiration... Message-ID: <199805082318.SAA03569@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Folks, My developer membership ends this month. How does Apple handle that? Will they notify me and let me renew? Thanks, - Jon From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Fri May 8 16:20:58 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: HW surprise: iMac; SW surprise: Rhapsody?? References: <199805082311.AA09090@e4e.oac.uci.edu> Message-ID: <199805082320.SAA03575@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> > Sal Denaro had this to say on 5/8/1998 10:59 AM: > > >The $64,000 question: "Is Steve evil and manipulative enough to come > >up with a plan like this?" > > Oh, most definately. Perhaps his title should change from 'Interim CEO' to 'Evil Genius'. - Jon From paul at eisusa.com Fri May 8 15:53:21 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:34 PM -0700 5/8/98, Pat Taylor wrote: >>At 11:32 AM -0700 5/8/98, Pat Taylor wrote: >> >>>BTW, it's easy to make light of MacPaint and MacWrite nowadays, but that's >>>looking at it through revisionist eyes. At that time, those applications >>>blew away the feature set of ANY PC program on the market ... and came free >>>with each Mac (or were actually quite expensive but came with a beautiful >>>beige carrying case ;^) At any rate, there isn't any application that >>>doesn't have specific hardware needs that won't run on an iMac AFAIK. > >Paul Nicholson wrote: >>They were great programs, but they were not very useful to business, and >>that's where Apple lost and (is still losing) the war. Businesses wanted >>machines with hard disks and more than 128K of memory, with floppy drives >>that could read industry disk formats. They did not want to output 72 dpi >>clip art on an ImageWriter, some people did obviously. Steve knew better, >>he knew that people did not want a computer with those things, after all >>they wanted an appliance. > >Programs back in 1984 just weren't terribly useful PERIOD. While >applications have succumbed to bloat in recent years, WordPerfect back then >was hardly a useful product ... but no one expected better (until MacWrite >came out with WYSIWYG and fonts!). I wrote a lot of technical documents with WordStar and a daisy wheel printer on CPM systems, it worked really well for what we were doing. Other than the inconvience of not having a mouse to edit text with, I could write just as fast back then as now. >Think back at the mid-eighties again ... the pretty much the first >commercially available laser printer came out at the same time as the Mac >(from Hewlett Packard), but didn't get widespread use in PCs until about >1989! In fact, 1993 was the first year the laser printer was treated as a >consumer item. The Imagewriter was actually pretty close to >state-of-the-art at the time. Yes, and by the end of the eighties Apple had already lost the business market. Apple had a wonderful vision, but it was way too narrow. And that same guy who was head then is back in charge now. Hoe about "Insanely great!- but woefully limited" >As for hard drives, these didn't become common business items for another >year or two after the Mac came out ... I know several people that still >used a dual floppy setup in their PC as late as 1991. I was using hard drives on CPM systems in the early 80's. >128K was a bit skimpy ... but consider that the first IBM PC was released >with only 64K. But you could add more memory to a PeeCee, a color monitor, a hard disk, an analog to digital converter card. Try laying out a circuit board on a Mac with a monochrome monitor (remember McCAD), EE's needed color for that. I've owned Mac's since the Mac II, but I've always had to have a PeeCee too. >At the same time as Apple, PC makers were releasing PCs with >only 128K and their floppies could only store 320K. Even as late as 1987, >Kaypro was releasing 386s without hard drives. Back in 1984, you could add >a 10 MB hard drive to a PC but that would double its cost to over $6000. But you could add it if you wanted too, and yo could buy it stripped and add it yourself for less. >The fact is that the 128K Mac was crippled but only by later standards, not >the ones of the time. If no one used hard drives, then not having the >ability to add one was hardly fool-hardy. Check out Byte's Blasts from the >Past to be shocked at how far we've come. You are wrong, a lot of people were using hard drives. I did not have one on my Apple II with a Microsoft CPM card (remember those ;-)?), but at work, in 1982, I used a multiprocessor MUSE system with a Z-80 running CPM for each user and a big shared 40 meg winchester, with a 5 meg partition for each user. (Essentialy 8 separate Z-80 CPM computers treating each partition as their own private disk.) And a few lucky people had standalone NorthStar systems with 5 megabyte disks and bitmap graphics. >The iMac shouldn't be looked at as a regular Mac minus, but rather as an NC >plus. The Mac has all the applications that JavaStations don't plus the >ability to integrate with Windows NT Servers (DAVE, Citrix's WinFrame, etc) >and run both Java (theoretically) and PC software (through emulation). Yes, but Apple has to instill confidence in the IS managers. Otherwise, they will stick with what works (well sorta works) - Wintel. It hinges on Rhapsody, not iMac. >>This is not the direction the rumor winds >>have been blowing lately. > >I think rumour winds break, they don't blow ... Yes, there's a lot of truth to that. I can't forget the breaking winds about Copland, and they turned out to be true. Paul Paul Nicholson Electronic Imaging Systems, Inc. TEL 805 532 1068 5148 Commerce Avenue, Unit F FAX 805 532 1065 Moorpark, CA 93021 U.S.A. paul@eisusa.com http://www.eisusa.com From paul at eisusa.com Fri May 8 16:37:12 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:06 PM -0700 5/8/98, Pat Taylor wrote: >Today, Apple has an advantage in that it controls both the hardware and >software parts of the equation. The iMac and its successors are the >hardware part of the information appliance equation. The Yellow Box >(whether hosted on Mach or some future improved lite version of the MacOS) >is the software part ... But with standardized PCI peripherals chips and a modern driver architecture this is not an advantage any more. PCI peripherals work well on Mac's and PeeCee's. Apple simply can't afford to not use standardized silicon. Why design your own fast PCI ethernet chip when you can buy the silicon for $20.00. If you really must put it on your own piece of silicon, then you can buy the core design out right and combine it with other designs - I'll have 1 fast ethernet core, SCSI, USB, a real time clock to go - and would you put that on a Toshiba gate array. Go look at the PC98 spec at Intel if you want to see where they are going. >Besides, if the iMac is the low-end, I can't wait to see the high-end! Jon >Rubenstein is best known for his cutting edge work on workstations (dual >PPCs for FirePower) ... I can only begin to imagine what he and his >engineers are putting together to challenge Wintel. Well yes, but it's not Apple's design that is so hot - it's the G3 Motorola and IBM designed. The only significant improvement over previos designs Apple made was the use of the SDRAM memory, and this is two years behind the industry. Apple's never at the leading edge of hardware design. It's not that hard, a PPC glue chip, SDRAM, a couple of G4's with backside cache, PCI SCSI, Fast Ethernet, USB and general purpose I/O. OK, with 100 mhz SDRAM, you have to simulate the hell out of the PC board design (you are working with RF - trace design is extremely critical, parts and traces can't be put just anywhere like we used to do). You basically choose the glue chip, add in the appropriate PCI to whatever I/O chips, and bolt on the memory. Other than the special care required for the very high frequencies, and the large pincounts of the packages, it's much easier than the old days when I designed CPU boards out of 68000 and 68020 CPU's. Back then you had to build the DRAM memory interface and I/O out of discrete parts and limited function LSI parts with a plethora of different bus interfaces. I'd do it myself if I knew Apple would license Rhapsody PPC, but the way they flip-flop, who would trust them (ask the CHRP folks about that). If Jon Rubenstien and his elves are the only ones with the secret, then what has Apple got to lose with licensing Rhap PPC competitively with WinNT Server at around $600 a copy? Paul From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Fri May 8 17:00:25 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote References: Message-ID: <199805090000.TAA03599@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Paul wrote: > Yes, and by the end of the eighties Apple had already lost the business > market. Apple had a wonderful vision, but it was way too narrow. And that > same guy who was head then is back in charge now. Hoe about "Insanely > great!- but woefully limited" No. Jobs left in 1985. He wasn't around in the late 80's. Since then, wouldn't you know it, Jobs was running a company that was been selling exclusively to business. In a specialized niche, true, but business nonetheless. >Yes, there's a lot of truth to that. I can't forget the breaking winds >about Copland, and they turned out to be true. All of them? All of the Copland rumors that ever wafted by? Doubtful. From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Fri May 8 17:08:13 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote References: Message-ID: <199805090008.TAA03602@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> >Well yes, but it's not Apple's design that is so hot - it's the G3 Motorola >and IBM designed. The only significant improvement over previos designs >Apple made was the use of the SDRAM memory, and this is two years behind >the industry. Apple's never at the leading edge of hardware design. They seem to be edging forward, though, as seen in the 83Mhz bus in the new G3 PowerBooks. I don't think any PC laptops are running faster than 66 Mhz. I'd assume Apple's quite aware of the new 100Mhz bus on PC's. It'd be cute if they could top that a bit (125, say), but it'd be better to stick with 100Mhz and not risk the need for special SDRAM instead of the PC100 SDRam. - Jon From rmcassid at uci.edu Fri May 8 17:18:57 1998 From: rmcassid at uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote Message-ID: <199805090018.AA17482@e4e.oac.uci.edu> Paul Nicholson had this to say on 5/8/1998 4:43 PM: >At 3:06 PM -0700 5/8/98, Pat Taylor wrote: > >>Today, Apple has an advantage in that it controls both the hardware and >>software parts of the equation. The iMac and its successors are the >>hardware part of the information appliance equation. The Yellow Box >>(whether hosted on Mach or some future improved lite version of the MacOS) >>is the software part ... > >But with standardized PCI peripherals chips and a modern driver >architecture this is not an advantage any more. Sure it is. It is because Apple can migrate users away from bonehead hardware faster and therefore not have to include it in systems forever. Really only Apple could get away with no floppy, no serial, no parallel, no ISA or PCI or whatever slots (slots suck). Apple just made all Mac software companies ship their products on CD's instead of floppies. No more need for a floppy drive for me! Apple just made all Mac hardware companies support USB and _only_ USB (well, IrDA too). No more Appletalk ports for me! Apple just made all Mac storage companies support USB. No more SCSI Zip for me! Apple may have only eliminated $100 worth of hardware and probably a small mountain of drivers from their systems, but in a world of $1000 and under computers, that's a hell of a lot of money. It's a different advantage than you might be considering... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Cassidy School of Engineering, UGSA UC Irvine -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paul at eisusa.com Fri May 8 17:33:05 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: <199805090000.TAA03599@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: At 5:03 PM -0700 5/8/98, Jonathan Hendry wrote: >Paul wrote: >> Yes, and by the end of the eighties Apple had already lost the business >> market. Apple had a wonderful vision, but it was way too narrow. And that >> same guy who was head then is back in charge now. How about "Insanely >> great!- but woefully limited" > >No. Jobs left in 1985. He wasn't around in the late 80's. Yes, and it was then that Apple started looking around and noticed that color, expandability, and reading and writing IBM floppies were a good thing, maybe people want more than an appliance. >Since then, wouldn't you know it, Jobs was running a company that >was been selling exclusively to business. In a specialized niche, >true, but business nonetheless. Yes, and a company that Ross Perot, Cannon, Businessland and others dumped hundreds of millions into. The only money NeXT ever returned to the investors was when Apple bought it. Paul Paul Nicholson Electronic Imaging Systems, Inc. TEL 805 532 1068 5148 Commerce Avenue, Unit F FAX 805 532 1065 Moorpark, CA 93021 U.S.A. paul@eisusa.com http://www.eisusa.com From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Fri May 8 17:36:42 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote References: <199805090018.AA17482@e4e.oac.uci.edu> Message-ID: <199805090036.TAA03621@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Robert Cassidy wrote: >Apple just made all Mac software companies ship their products >on CD's instead of floppies. This is, unfortunately, a drawback for small 'demoware' authors. They'll have to use authenticated electronic distribution of some sort. If your product is 150k, and you're asking $25, and you don't sell many copies, burning CD's is not cost effective. With luck, Apple will come up with some way to make this easy. It would actually be pretty cool if they set up a section of the Apple Store for distribution, sale and registration of small-developer software. Software that's too small for Cyberian Outpost to care about. - Jon From setzer at backfence.net Fri May 8 11:12:00 1998 From: setzer at backfence.net (Setzer Family) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: MTK boiled down Message-ID: This week's Mac The Knife, parsed of all the cultural references and pseudo-cool posturing, can be summarized as: Apple will tell developers that MacOS is the volume platform and they should move to YB for MacOS. Well, duh! Isn't that what Apple said last year? Isn't that what many on this list and on some of the Websites have been saying for quite a while? Now, I actually believe that Apple's core markets, especially the graphic artists, will flock to Rhapsody itself once they get some exposure to it. I see YB for MacOS, assuming Apple actually delivers it, as both a transition technology (for users) and a market justification for YB (for developers). Regardless, it's clear that MacOS will be the volume platform for the one to two year term at least. Sheesh. MTK is on the trailing edge again. Steve Setzer From paul at eisusa.com Fri May 8 18:06:31 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: <199805090018.AA17482@e4e.oac.uci.edu> Message-ID: At 5:21 PM -0700 5/8/98, Robert Cassidy wrote: >Paul Nicholson had this to say on 5/8/1998 4:43 PM: > >>At 3:06 PM -0700 5/8/98, Pat Taylor wrote: >> >>>Today, Apple has an advantage in that it controls both the hardware and >>>software parts of the equation. The iMac and its successors are the >>>hardware part of the information appliance equation. The Yellow Box >>>(whether hosted on Mach or some future improved lite version of the MacOS) >>>is the software part ... >> >>But with standardized PCI peripherals chips and a modern driver >>architecture this is not an advantage any more. > >Sure it is. It is because Apple can migrate users away from bonehead >hardware faster and therefore not have to include it in systems forever. >Really only Apple could get away with no floppy, no serial, no parallel, >no ISA or PCI or whatever slots (slots suck). You don't need slots for modems and mice, but let's see you put a fast ethernet card, fast wide, SCSI raid, second video card, etc. on your USB port. USB is made to replce the things done with the EISA bus, and that's been the big problem with PC I/O anyway. PCI is still very much a current technology and it's going to be here for a while. Speaking of "bonehead hardware", how long did it take for Apple to implement DMA, SDRAM, cache, fast buses, etc. Don't forget that Apple can also make people use their lagging hardware because that's the only thing their software runs on - they are afraid to compete in the hardware world with a licensed operating system. >Apple just made all Mac >software companies ship their products on CD's instead of floppies. No >more need for a floppy drive for me! Apple just made all Mac hardware >companies support USB and _only_ USB (well, IrDA too). No more Appletalk >ports for me! Apple just made all Mac storage companies support USB. No >more SCSI Zip for me! Apple may have only eliminated $100 worth of >hardware and probably a small mountain of drivers from their systems, but >in a world of $1000 and under computers, that's a hell of a lot of money. Hey, there's nothing wrong with USB, and it's a good chioce for a low end machine and in conjunction with PCI slots on high end machines. It's a fast ADB, OK for slower devices. But it's not suitable for high speed I/O. It's got its applications, but not for high bandwidth I/O. >It's a different advantage than you might be considering... And that's exactly what PeeCee 98 is about. Go prowl the Microsoft and Intel sites, see what their vision is. The PC is changing too. USB hardware has been around for two years. Microsoft just can't get the drivers written for it. Guess what Bill was demonstrating in Win98 when the world saw the blue screen of death - a USB connected scanner. BY the way the G3 is an ATX compliant board. The ATX form factor has provisons for a customized connector knockout on back of the case and a power supply with software controlled power. Take a PPC motherboard supplied with a knockout for the I/O connectors, slap it in a box, plug in an ATX compliant power supply, add Rhapsody and you are there. Take a stroll down to Fry's and look at ATX cases. Paul Paul Nicholson Electronic Imaging Systems, Inc. TEL 805 532 1068 5148 Commerce Avenue, Unit F FAX 805 532 1065 Moorpark, CA 93021 U.S.A. paul@eisusa.com http://www.eisusa.com From pat at qhp.queensu.ca Fri May 8 18:40:36 1998 From: pat at qhp.queensu.ca (Pat Taylor) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: <199805090036.TAA03621@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: >Robert Cassidy wrote: > >>Apple just made all Mac software companies ship their products >>on CD's instead of floppies. > >This is, unfortunately, a drawback for small 'demoware' authors. They'll >have to use authenticated electronic distribution of some sort. If your >product is 150k, and you're asking $25, and you don't sell many copies, >burning CD's is not cost effective. Or they can go via the Net. For most small companies or one person shops floppy distribution has its own problems. As well, they can get together with other companies to create a single encrypted CD-ROM which could be unlocked via password. >With luck, Apple will come up with some way to make this easy. It would >actually be pretty cool if they set up a section of the Apple Store >for distribution, sale and registration of small-developer software. >Software that's too small for Cyberian Outpost to care about. Yeah ... that would be very cool. I think it would give good visibility to both the authors and Apple. ______________________________________________________________ Patrick Taylor Kingston, Ontario, CANADA mailto:pat@qhp.queensu.ca http://www.stepwise.com "These are my principles, if you don't like them ... I've got others." --Groucho Marx From louispel at total.net Fri May 8 18:41:17 1998 From: louispel at total.net (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: PC hardware vs Mac hardware... (was Re: Elison) Message-ID: <199805090140.VAA23317@pablo.total.net> Jonathan Hendry at "jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com" said on 08/05/98 20:09 : >They seem to be edging forward, though, as seen in the 83Mhz bus in the >new G3 PowerBooks. I don't think any PC laptops are running faster than >66 Mhz. I'd assume Apple's quite aware of the new 100Mhz bus on PC's. It'd >be cute if they could top that a bit (125, say), but it'd be better to stick >with 100Mhz and not risk the need for special SDRAM instead of the PC100 >SDRam. > > >- Jon Intel looks like having "real" projects for the future of the Pentium line... They are talking, for 1999, about 200Mhz bus, with 500Mhz Katma? processors and using RAMBus memory... And there is also the case of SMP... I can now buy a dual 233Mhz Pentium 2 box for 2000$CAN (and it is a complete system - only no screen). Maybe this looks stupid, but I still can't understand why we haven't pass the 400Mhz with the 750... If Intel could do it with a 333Mhz P2, eating 45W; why AIM can't do the same with a processor eating merely 5-6W?? And why are PowerMac buses still at 82Mhz (top speed)?? Why doesn't all high-end G3 have a FireWire bus?? Why doesn't all G3 have a USB?? I think that Apple is very lucky to have the speedy PPC... if they were stuck with an oldy CISC-RISC MMX technology, and with the same hardware they're selling today; they would be in big trouble... Come on, Apple, those technologies are coming to PCs now! What are you waiting for?? I want a 100Mhz bus with a 500Mhz G3, with standard SCSI, I want 1 meg of backside cache, I want USB and FireWire (standard), I want accelerated graphics, and I want it - if possible - cheap (and I want it now!! ;o) Are you just forgetting about the real high-end market? And with Rhapsody, those boxes would sell like hot cakes! A very powerfull server/workstation solution for 3000$US? There is certainly a market for this!! Anyway, I'm waiting for monday announcements, L. Pelletier From izumi at pinoko.berkeley.edu Fri May 8 19:11:26 1998 From: izumi at pinoko.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: PC hardware vs Mac hardware... (was Re: Elison) In-Reply-To: <199805090140.VAA23317@pablo.total.net> References: <199805090140.VAA23317@pablo.total.net> Message-ID: <199805090211.TAA12161@moica.berkeley.edu> On Fri, 8 May 1998, Louis Pelletier wrote: > > Why doesn't all high-end G3 have a FireWire bus?? Perhaps, it's still considered too much ahead of its time? Disappointing, but if Apple can't ride on a flood of peripherals, making it standard equipment is premature. If anyone really has to have one now, Adaptec has a card (thought not sold to end users). http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/news/0504/08afire.html ... Lack of demand for IEEE 1394 .. has caused Intel Corp. to cancel plans to integrate support for it in its next-generation 440BX chip set. From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Fri May 8 19:19:32 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: PC hardware vs Mac hardware... (was Re: Elison) Message-ID: <199805090219.VAA03721@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Izumi Ohzawa wrote > On Fri, 8 May 1998, Louis Pelletier wrote: > > > > Why doesn't all high-end G3 have a FireWire bus?? > > Perhaps, it's still considered too much ahead of its time? > Disappointing, but if Apple can't ride on a flood of > peripherals, making it standard equipment is premature. > If anyone really has to have one now, Adaptec has a card > (thought not sold to end users). You can configure all G3's with FireWire at the Apple Store. (Not laptops) - Jon From jesse at metamediasys.com Fri May 8 19:39:43 1998 From: jesse at metamediasys.com (Jesse Sng) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: <9805082215.AA07814@leinie.gage.com> Message-ID: >Yes, I just learned about the Apple masters and how how Bonington took his >solar-powered Apple IIc to Mt. Everest's Camp 2 at 22,500 feet for >logistics planning and communications, his use of PowerBook systems on >subsequent ascents, and plans for using his Power Macintosh G3 on his >upcoming Sepu Kangri expedition. There's also a Singapore expedition making the ascent on Mt Everest at the moment - partly sponsored by Apple. They've been communicating with our local schools and the media using sponsored Powerbooks with wireless internet connections. What can I say - the stuff just works. Besides the obvious cold, it must be pretty harsh charging your Powerbook batteries using generators as the voltage can fluctuate very badly. Jesse Sng From louispel at total.net Fri May 8 20:08:09 1998 From: louispel at total.net (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: PC hardware vs Mac hardware... (was Re: Elison) Message-ID: <199805090307.XAA07812@pablo.total.net> Jonathan Hendry at "jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com" said on 08/05/98 22:21 : >You can configure all G3's with FireWire at the Apple Store. > >(Not laptops) > >- Jon That's a matter of speaking... what if I want a high-end machine in 6 months, based on the mini-tower G3 I bought today? If I buy a 100Bt, with a Ultra-SCSI and a 128bit video... where will I put my FireWire adaptor? I know that there are rumors about some kind of expansion bay for PCI... but still... do you know of any "serious" multimedia creator that will use IDE? And what if he need a 100Bt to transfer those "mega-files"? And what if he need two screens to do he work anyway... some of those should become standard in higher-end G3... It looks like we really lost something with the "death" of the cloners. Especially PowerComputing. He read an article about a prototype of PPC 750 clone (motorola I think) that runned at 300Mhz and gives better performance than anything now sold by Apple... If Apple is really commited to DTP and the multi-media creation, they need to keep some "really" high-end machines... in those worlds, power is never excessive... I'm happy to see that Apple has refocused on their core market, but I "kind of" regret those PowerComputing ads that "toasted" the PCs, but also pushed Apple to deliver better products. I really hope cloning will come back, after Apple makes its own "come back". L. Pelletier. From louispel at total.net Fri May 8 20:19:00 1998 From: louispel at total.net (Louis Pelletier) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: PC hardware vs Mac hardware... Message-ID: <199805090318.XAA08824@wacky.total.net> I know this as almost nothing to do with Rhapsody, but great hardware would also mean great Rhapsody workstations/servers. Now that the PPC have a "real" OS that can "harness" all this power, Apple, give us "beast" that can reveal the power of both the PPC and Rhapsody. Let's put distance between those Intel's PCs and gain momentum toward bigger brand names as Sun (or others). I still think that my oldy 601 (7200) would gain power by running Rhapsody instead of MacOS 8. And if it is true, then it surely mean that a 400Mhz PPC would just "run over" everything intel can do. Maybe some of you think that this is not really important, but I have my own opinion on this: if Rhapsody becomes really the cross-platform OS we expect, PCs will be (as it has always been) cheaper solutions. So why would you buy a PPC? Apple will need to give reasons: "Well, you can run Rhapsody on a Pentium box, but if you want true power, then... well...hehe... buy a Mac!". This opinion is based on my belief that Rhapsody will be in some way a commercial success on both PPC and Intel worlds. And I think that be looking at the way Apple is marketing the G3 "pentium-toasting" processor, there could be some truth in this... L. Pelletier. From paul at eisusa.com Fri May 8 20:26:06 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: PC hardware vs Mac hardware... (was Re: Elison) In-Reply-To: <199805090140.VAA23317@pablo.total.net> Message-ID: At 6:42 PM -0700 5/8/98, Louis Pelletier wrote: >Are you just forgetting about the real high-end market? And with >Rhapsody, those boxes would sell like hot cakes! A very powerfull >server/workstation solution for 3000$US? There is certainly a market for >this!! This would be a real DEC Alpha and dual Pentium II killer. You can buy a 533 Mhz Dec Alpha mother board with CPU and cache for under $1500.00 last time I checked, and that was several months ago, quantity 1, list price. That's why I'd like to be able to buy Rhapsody for generic PPC hardware. And Apple would have to sell a lot of iMac's to make the same profit they could make by charging me $600.00 for "Rhapsody Server edition". Thanks Louis, I'm glad somebody else thinks Apple has been sitting on their duff - it's good to have an ally. Paul Paul Nicholson Electronic Imaging Systems, Inc. TEL 805 532 1068 5148 Commerce Avenue, Unit F FAX 805 532 1065 Moorpark, CA 93021 U.S.A. paul@eisusa.com http://www.eisusa.com From rtulloch at ozemail.com.au Fri May 8 22:57:30 1998 From: rtulloch at ozemail.com.au (Ross Tulloch) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: PC hardware vs Mac hardware... (was Re: Elison) Message-ID: <199805090554.PAA04880@fep2.mail.ozemail.net> Paul Nicholson wrote: >That's why I'd like to be able to buy Rhapsody for generic PPC hardware. >And Apple would have to sell a lot of iMac's to make the same profit they >could make by charging me $600.00 for "Rhapsody Server edition". I don't understand the point your trying to make. Apple WILL make $600 by selling you a copy of "Rhapsody Server edition". That has nothing to do with if your running it on Apple PPC HW or Intel HW. The people who want/need Rhapsody to really fly WILL buy a PPC machine. They won't care that they can only buy it from Apple. Just my $0.02. Ross. From allen at clanprescott.com Fri May 8 22:58:57 1998 From: allen at clanprescott.com (Allen Prescott) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199805090557.WAA28397@mercury.dnai.com> At 02:40 PM 5/8/98 -0700, you wrote: >My Mac still crashes daily - I'm still waiting, have not given up yet. > My Windows NT box crashes daily as well. I'm waiting more anxiously than you I'll bet. Allen From truong at nol.net Fri May 8 23:02:00 1998 From: truong at nol.net (Tuan Truong) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: PC hardware vs Mac hardware... (was Re: Elison) In-Reply-To: <199805090140.VAA23317@pablo.total.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980509010200.00987780@nol.net> At 06:42 PM 5/8/98 -0700, Louis Pelletier wrote: > >Intel looks like having "real" projects for the future of the Pentium >line... They are talking, for 1999, about 200Mhz bus, with 500Mhz Katma=EF >processors and using RAMBus memory... > Wow, sure hope soft computing arrives sooner than later so we can actually use this much power. Outside of games, my Bifrost built P120 is more than adequate for at least another year... when AoE 2 comes out, arrgh, it will be time to upgrade. >Maybe this looks stupid, but I still can't understand why we haven't pass >the 400Mhz with the 750... If Intel could do it with a 333Mhz P2, eating >45W; why AIM can't do the same with a processor eating merely 5-6W?? > Isn't the PPC 750 and latest generation 604ev manufactured with a 0.25 micron process? Intel usually manages clock speed increases by moving to a smaller process (which allowed them to move the Pentium from 60 MHz at 0.65 microns to 266 MHz at 0.25 microns. Ditto with Pentium II which started with a 0.35 micron process and now is at 0.25). If the G3 PPC processors are already at the 0.25 micron process, then I would not expect more clock speed increases for them until IBM/Moto moves to 0.2 or 0.18 or maybe 0.25 w/Cu. Hardly anyone is at process level now. If there is a daring soul with a PowerMac G3, maybe they could try overclocking their system to 332 MHz at 83 Mhz to see what happens. My guess would be that the PPC can't take the increased power and heat even though it would be half that of a PII. In fact, is there any website out there with this info? >And why are PowerMac buses still at 82Mhz (top speed)?? > Don't worry about it too much. Since both Mac and PC hardware have separated RAM access (with backside cache and dual independent bus, frontside cache, blah blah blah) from the cache and PCI bus, increases in processor-to-main memory bus speed don't give large increases in performance as they use to. The performance increase from a P2 333 @ 66 MHz to a P2 400 @ 100 MHz is something like 17%. (Which is why a PPC 750 233MHz can outperform it at some things.) Having the cache at CPU speed will get you most of the way there and both Intel and IBM/Moto have already played this card. The thing to really rag on Apple is to increase the PCI bus to 66 MHz/64 bit, multi-bus or whathaveyou. RAMBUS or equivalent and graphics hardware as well. Of all the things you want to upgrade in a computer, the graphics chip/card would be it. Having that in a slot would seem the better way to go. >I think that Apple is very lucky to have the speedy PPC... if they were >stuck with an oldy CISC-RISC MMX technology, and with the same hardware >they're selling today; they would be in big trouble... > Doesn't seem to be a problem for Intel :-) (Pentiums, Xeons, K6s, and most modern x86s are essentially RISC chips w/x86 microcode translators). Moto could have done the same for 68k and Apple would not be having the MacOS native code problems... >Come on, Apple, those technologies are coming to PCs now! What are you >waiting for?? I want a 100Mhz bus with a 500Mhz G3, with standard SCSI, I >want 1 meg of backside cache, I want USB and FireWire (standard), I want >accelerated graphics, and I want it - if possible - cheap (and I want it >now!! ;o) > Forget Wintel hardware. Look to SGI and Sun for their crossbars and memory architectures. 1.2 GB sustained bus bandwidth. Or look to Sequent for NUMA. Cool. But I believe most everyone would agree with you. Apple should be trying to shatter performance levels of current machines with each new generation of machines. >Are you just forgetting about the real high-end market? And with >Rhapsody, those boxes would sell like hot cakes! A very powerfull >server/workstation solution for 3000$US? There is certainly a market for >this!! > I'm not sure. I think it would be better for Apple to stay focused on the 4 product lines they have now. Chasing after smaller niche markets w/entrenched companies like SGI, Sun and HP could be much more costly than its worth. Additionally, the bottom feeder strategy from Wintel seems to work fine, so computers that are 95% of the performance of a workstation for half the price seems a the good way to go. Besides Rhapsody's success lies in marketing and being able to sell to corporate and smaller business customers. Hardware (and software superiority) seems irrelevant these days. Having Apple reps swing weekend golfing or fishing trips for IS managers would seem to be the better way to sell Rhapsody than anything else. Trying to charm them with technical details seems to be a waste of time. -Tuan From allen at clanprescott.com Fri May 8 23:06:47 1998 From: allen at clanprescott.com (Allen Prescott) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Larry Ellison quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199805090605.XAA29016@mercury.dnai.com> At 02:47 PM 5/8/98 -0700, you wrote: >>At 11:47 AM -0700 5/8/98, Doug Moore wrote: >1) they bit into apple's own backyard, killing their already diminishing >market share. > Because Apple's products were not as attractive in the market as the competition. You fix this by making better products not by using your monopoly position to kill your competitors. Imagine if Microsoft went into the hardware business and then bought out Dell and Compaq because people were buying those machines instead of the ones from Microsoft. Might someone cry foul? Would you want the Microsoft boxes? >2) the cloners (i.e. power computing) were fighting apple's attempt to >raise the liscense price so there was no way apple could make a profit >liscensing. > So why did they create a license that was not profitable in the first place? The cloners would much rather have paid more than been killed. Apple just did not want to compete. >3) the machines were CRAP! i have to support my agency's 5 power computing >machines they purchased recently; and they crash more than any other >machine we have, macs and pee cees. > Your right about that. In fact, all PC boxes on the planet are crap. That does not stop 95% of the worlds desktop users from buying them. Apple needs to climb down from their elitist hill and allow the people to buy what they will buy. It does not matter that this may not be what they really want. If 95% of the market wants it then, damn it, let them buy it. Allen From trmp at sopris.net Fri May 8 23:09:27 1998 From: trmp at sopris.net (David Evenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: PC hardware vs Mac hardware... (was Re: Elison) References: Message-ID: <3553F317.67951373@sopris.net> Paul Nicholson wrote: > At 6:42 PM -0700 5/8/98, Louis Pelletier wrote: > > >Are you just forgetting about the real high-end market? And with > >Rhapsody, those boxes would sell like hot cakes! A very powerfull > >server/workstation solution for 3000$US? There is certainly a market for > >this!! > > This would be a real DEC Alpha and dual Pentium II killer. You can buy a > 533 Mhz Dec Alpha mother board with CPU and cache for under $1500.00 last > time I checked, and that was several months ago, quantity 1, list price. > That's why I'd like to be able to buy Rhapsody for generic PPC hardware. > And Apple would have to sell a lot of iMac's to make the same profit they > could make by charging me $600.00 for "Rhapsody Server edition". > > Thanks Louis, I'm glad somebody else thinks Apple has been sitting on their > duff - it's good to have an ally. I don't think you're without allies, Paul. I think you're without fellow reactionaries. Myself, I'll wait and see what's presented Monday at WWDC. After all it's only two days away. -Dave From galexand at ozemail.com.au Sat May 9 06:40:36 1998 From: galexand at ozemail.com.au (Greg Alexander) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts Message-ID: <01bd7b50$0c156210$013ba8c0@smarts> Petro wrote: > Consumer Professional > ___ ___ >Desktop | a | b | a= iMac > |___|___| b= PMac G3 >Laptop | d | c | c= New G3 Laptops > |___|___| d= Unannounced "Consumer Portable" At the moment the usefulness of an iMac in business is very evident - except for the bundled software. The basic hardware serves a business need so why the separation? Maybe "business" has a meaning closer to "complex needs" - while consumer is "low end"? * Consumer ("low end") would be word processing, net/email, multimedia (games, learning/training). * Business ("Complex") would add databases, graphics/publishing, servers, programming etc. This gives a definition to what a "business computer" is - in that it has a particular power beyond the iMac (expandability, multiprocessor etc). In general, low-end computers _on_a_business_network_ would fit many business needs (Business laptops would need more power). Since the iMac will be attractive to businesses - it'll be interesting to see how both an "iMac" and "server" fit into the "business computer" category... Greg From amann at acofi.edu Sat May 9 10:53:37 1998 From: amann at acofi.edu (Allen L. Mann) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Tabbed application windows Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 547 bytes Desc: not available Url : /mailman/archive/macosx-talk/attachments/19980509/ef5b0cfd/attachment.bin From erbenson at alaska.net Sat May 9 12:01:33 1998 From: erbenson at alaska.net (Ethan Benson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Tabbed application windows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 5/9/98 Allen L. Mann wrote: >I just thought of a way to replace widowshade. Have the minimized stae be >a tabbed window like in the Finder. We could put the apllication icon in >the title bar next the thitl (as it is rumored to be in Allegro) in order >to be able to quickly identify tabbed widows. Any thoughts? Tabbed windows have absolutley NOTHING to do with minimize, for example when you click a tabbed window it is not restored, it opens like a drawer. Best Regards, Ethan Benson From jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com Sat May 9 12:16:24 1998 From: jhendry at cmg.fcnbd.com (Jonathan Hendry) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: MacOS 2000? Message-ID: <199805091916.OAA00346@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> MacOSRumors has a link to an Apple-supplied WWDC webcast schedule which mentions a 'MacOS 2000'. There's a Wednesday seesion called: "Core OS Architecture for Rhapsody & MAC OS 2000" http://applewwdc98.isocket.com/theater.html Hmm. Presumably, this means Rhapsody and MacOS 2000 will use the same core OS architecture... - Jon From amaral at storeria.bio.ou.edu Sat May 9 13:23:15 1998 From: amaral at storeria.bio.ou.edu (Jos=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=e9_Pedro_Sousa_do_Amaral?=) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Tabbed application windows Message-ID: <1317395101-15568294@storeria.bio.ou.edu> On 5/9/98 2:05 PM, Ethan Benson is rumored to have said: >Tabbed windows have absolutley NOTHING to do with minimize, for example >when you click a tabbed window it is not restored, it opens like a drawer. Your nothing refers to what? I am particularly interested in this subject for I believe that a managed way of tabbing windows would be an elegant way of Rhapsody reducing desktop clutter. This list already has had this discussion, but I still think that managed (and manageable) tabbed windows would be a nice complement to a dock and a far more manageable system than a taskbar equivalent. ZP Jos? Pedro Sousa do Amaral Incapaz de assistir num s? terreno, Mais propenso ao furor do que ? ternura; Bebendo em n?veas m?os, por ta?a escura, De zelos infernais letal veneno; M.M.B. du Bocage From pat at qhp.queensu.ca Sat May 9 20:54:54 1998 From: pat at qhp.queensu.ca (Pat Taylor) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: new QuickTime Licensing structure Message-ID: >From the Macintouch site: Macintouch has an email from Charles Wiltgen, QT evangelist outlining Apple's new QuickTime licensing plans. I've paraphrased the modifications which should answer several of the more controversial elements of the QT Licensing plan (but be sure to check out the whole message as it shows that Apple is determined to make QT work for everyone): ======= QuickTime Software Distribution Agreement (SDA) Modifications in Brief: 1. QuickTime Free Distribution QT3 can be distributed free as long as the ad is played once during installation and saves the movie to the desktop only at installation time. 2. QuickTime "No-Ad" Distribution "No Ad" distributions are possible at licensing levels of $1 for QT3 and $2 for QT3 Pro. 5. QuickTime 3 Web Browser Plug-in The browser plug-in only demonstrates the ad once. Cheers, Patrick ______________________________________________________________ Patrick Taylor Kingston, Ontario, CANADA mailto:pat@qhp.queensu.ca http://www.stepwise.com "These are my principles, if you don't like them ... I've got others." --Groucho Marx From paul at eisusa.com Sat May 9 17:42:51 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: PC hardware vs Mac hardware... (was Re: Elison) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980509010200.00987780@nol.net> Message-ID: At 11:03 PM -0700 5/8/98, Tuan Truong wrote: >If there is a daring soul with a PowerMac G3, maybe they could try >overclocking their system to 332 MHz at 83 Mhz to see what happens. My >guess would be that the PPC can't take the increased power and heat even >though it would be half that of a PII. In fact, is there any website out >there with this info? That must be those jumpers on the G3 motherboard with the warranty void if removed label on them. Try putting your finger on the heatsink. The 233 Mhz we have doesn't get very warm at all, and there is not much air blowing on it either. I bet it would clock faster. > The thing to really rag on Apple is to increase the PCI bus to >66 MHz/64 bit, multi-bus or whathaveyou. RAMBUS or equivalent and graphics >hardware as well. Of all the things you want to upgrade in a computer, the >graphics chip/card would be it. Having that in a slot would seem the better >way to go. Apple is behind the industry in adding 64bit/66 Mhz. >>I think that Apple is very lucky to have the speedy PPC... if they were >>stuck with an oldy CISC-RISC MMX technology, and with the same hardware >>they're selling today; they would be in big trouble... >> >Doesn't seem to be a problem for Intel :-) (Pentiums, Xeons, K6s, and most >modern x86s are essentially RISC chips w/x86 microcode translators). Moto >could have done the same for 68k and Apple would not be having the MacOS >native code problems... Intel wastes a lot of silicon just to support the x86 instructions. Their die have always been bigger and hotter for the same performance. The native code problem could have been fixed if Apple had their act together. >I'm not sure. I think it would be better for Apple to stay focused on the 4 >product lines they have now. Chasing after smaller niche markets >w/entrenched companies like SGI, Sun and HP could be much more costly than >its worth. Additionally, the bottom feeder strategy from Wintel seems to >work fine, so computers that are 95% of the performance of a workstation >for half the price seems a the good way to go. This is why we need third party PPC hardware. The super high performance market is a niche, but its also a flagship of what can be done with the technology. Let apple go after the high volume mass market, and let other license Rhapsody PPC for multi CPU, 66mhz/64 bit lot of PCI slot boxes. Paul Paul Nicholson Electronic Imaging Systems, Inc. TEL 805 532 1068 5148 Commerce Avenue, Unit F FAX 805 532 1065 Moorpark, CA 93021 U.S.A. paul@eisusa.com http://www.eisusa.com From das at doit.wisc.edu Sun May 10 10:01:24 1998 From: das at doit.wisc.edu (Dave Schroeder) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: PC hardware vs Mac hardware... (was Re: Elison) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 May 1998, Paul Nicholson wrote: > At 11:03 PM -0700 5/8/98, Tuan Truong wrote: > > >If there is a daring soul with a PowerMac G3, maybe they could try > >overclocking their system to 332 MHz at 83 Mhz to see what happens. My > >guess would be that the PPC can't take the increased power and heat even > >though it would be half that of a PII. In fact, is there any website out > >there with this info? > > That must be those jumpers on the G3 motherboard with the warranty void if > removed label on them. Try putting your finger on the heatsink. The 233 Mhz > we have doesn't get very warm at all, and there is not much air blowing on > it either. I bet it would clock faster. The web site that has the info about the G3 jumpers is: http://www.bekkoame.or.jp/~t-imai/g3ae1.html I have already overclocked my G3/266 to 300, and my 300 to 333. They both run great, although (as with any overclocking) your mileage may vary. Where are you coming up with the PPC not being able to take the higher clock? This motherboard is actually very flexible, and I would imagine that various companies will start offering new G3 processor modules (maybe with things like larger L2 cache, L2 at a higher clock, 500MHz-capable G3's, etc.) right about the time G3 warranties start to expire, instructing people to rip off that little VOID sticker... Regards, Dave Schroeder University of Wisconsin - Madison From theisen at akaMail.com Sun May 10 16:50:19 1998 From: theisen at akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Software Distribution (was: Larry Ellison quote) In-Reply-To: <199805090036.TAA03621@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <1d8tjwr.1sopyzg1fr83wjM@rhrz-isdn3-p30.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> Hi! > This is, unfortunately, a drawback for small 'demoware' authors. They'll > have to use authenticated electronic distribution of some sort. If your > product is 150k, and you're asking $25, and you don't sell many copies, > burning CD's is not cost effective. I think, Apple expects those software to be downloaded from the net. > With luck, Apple will come up with some way to make this easy. It would > actually be pretty cool if they set up a section of the Apple Store > for distribution, sale and registration of small-developer software. > Software that's too small for Cyberian Outpost to care about. You mean, Kagi? Dirk -- No RISC - No fun http://theisen.home.pages.de/ From elisha at dot.net.au Sun May 10 18:56:59 1998 From: elisha at dot.net.au (Luci Ellis) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts In-Reply-To: <01bd7b50$0c156210$013ba8c0@smarts> Message-ID: Greg Alexander wrote: >Petro wrote: >> Consumer Professional ^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> ___ ___ >>Desktop | a | b | a= iMac >> |___|___| b= PMac G3 >>Laptop | d | c | c= New G3 Laptops >> |___|___| d= Unannounced "Consumer Portable" > > >At the moment the usefulness of an iMac in business is very evident - except >for the bundled software. The basic hardware serves a business need so >why the separation? > >Maybe "business" has a meaning closer to "complex needs" - while consumer is >"low end"? >* Consumer ("low end") would be word processing, net/email, > multimedia (games, learning/training). >* Business ("Complex") would add databases, graphics/publishing, servers, > programming etc. Uh, the actual distinction is "Professional" versus "Consumer", not "Business" versus "consumer". I think that is quite deliberate. There are many businesses that need something "simple". Could the iMac fit that need? Kind of. Is it intended to? No. Would some sort of thin-client/NC fit better? More than likely in most cases. Yes, there are businesses where the iMac might fit in quite nicely (and if you are at all familiar with the thinking of the management of Australian universities, they pretty much think of themselves as "businesses", so there's one). But other than education, that's not where it's pitched at. I don't think it's appropriate to judge the iMac on its suitability to a market it's not aimed at. It would make a lousy server too. >This gives a definition to what a "business computer" is - in that it >has a particular power beyond the iMac (expandability, multiprocessor etc). >In general, low-end computers _on_a_business_network_ would fit many >business needs (Business laptops would need more power). > >Since the iMac will be attractive to businesses - it'll be interesting >to see how both an "iMac" and "server" fit into the "business computer" >category... Greg, the last two paragraphs are predicated on an sectoral definition of business-consumer. But the distinction made at the Apple presentation is professional-consumer. Of if you like, producer-consumer. Sort of like the distinction between producers of video conent (news cameras) using BetaCam, and consumers of video content, including businesses, using VHS (-;. If we re-orient the definition to professional-consumer, the strategy becomes a lot easier to understand. There will be businesses that are looking for something that is more "consumer" in style (think reception desks). That's perfectly in line with the professional-consumer model of the product line. There will be a lot of home users ("consumers" by your definition) who are nevertheless "professionals" in the sense that they do stuff that requires a Power Mac G3 / "Professional" G3 (for example, me using Mathematica). But there are many others who don't, for example my parents. If I can persuade my sister to buy the USB SuperDrive that's been announced, I might just get them one for Christmas. But of course none of this is relevant to Rhapsody, which is most certainly Pro(fessional), as opposed to Con(sumer), which is where the MacOS will sit better. MacOS will also be in the Pro space -- the rumblings in Mac the Knife and elsewhere suggest that Yellow Box on Mac OS will become more important than previously thought. If true, this implies that Yellow Box on Mac OS exists and its CR1 will probably ship around the same time Rhapsody CR1 ships. Regards, Luci -------------- Luci Ellis: elisha@dot.net.au http://www.dot.net.au/~elisha "Secluded in their semi-academic environment, the digerati passionately espoused ideas that in the real world wouldn't fool a cow" -- DH Freedman and CC Mann, "At Large". -------------- From paul at eisusa.com Sun May 10 21:11:49 1998 From: paul at eisusa.com (Paul Nicholson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: PC hardware vs Mac hardware... (was Re: Elison) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:03 AM -0700 5/10/98, Dave Schroeder wrote: >On Sun, 10 May 1998, Paul Nicholson wrote: > >> At 11:03 PM -0700 5/8/98, Tuan Truong wrote: >> >> >If there is a daring soul with a PowerMac G3, maybe they could try >> >overclocking their system to 332 MHz at 83 Mhz to see what happens. My >> >guess would be that the PPC can't take the increased power and heat even >> >though it would be half that of a PII. In fact, is there any website out >> >there with this info? >> >> That must be those jumpers on the G3 motherboard with the warranty void if >> removed label on them. Try putting your finger on the heatsink. The 233 Mhz >> we have doesn't get very warm at all, and there is not much air blowing on >> it either. I bet it would clock faster. > >The web site that has the info about the G3 jumpers is: > >http://www.bekkoame.or.jp/~t-imai/g3ae1.html > >I have already overclocked my G3/266 to 300, and my 300 to 333. They >both run great, although (as with any overclocking) your mileage may >vary. Did you try overclocking either one until you found the speed limit? >Where are you coming up with the PPC not being able to take the higher >clock? I did not say that. The chip runs cool, therfore you could probably clock it faster, assuming the internal timing is adequate. >This motherboard is actually very flexible, and I would imagine that >various companies will start offering new G3 processor modules (maybe >with things like larger L2 cache, L2 at a higher clock, 500MHz-capable >G3's, etc.) right about the time G3 warranties start to expire, >instructing people to rip off that little VOID sticker... Yeah, I agree with you. Paul Nicholson Electronic Imaging Systems, Inc. TEL 805 532 1068 5148 Commerce Avenue, Unit F FAX 805 532 1065 Moorpark, CA 93021 U.S.A. paul@eisusa.com http://www.eisusa.com From galexand at ozemail.com.au Sun May 10 21:12:58 1998 From: galexand at ozemail.com.au (Greg Alexander) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: More Rhap Server/Client Thoughts Message-ID: <01bd7c93$14ac39f0$013ba8c0@smarts> Thanks for the clarification on Professional vs Business, I don't know how it slipped by me... Luci Ellis wrote: >There are >many businesses that need something "simple". Could the iMac fit that >need? Kind of. Is it intended to? No. Would some sort of thin-client/NC >fit better? More than likely in most cases. The bundling in itself says this isn't aimed at businesses - but the basic parts are there (I think the translucent case is a negative). >Yes, there are businesses where the iMac might fit in quite nicely >I don't think it's appropriate to judge the iMac on its suitability to a >market it's not aimed at. It would make a lousy server too. I actually judge it as fine for consumers, and not bad for businesses. Although it's not aimed at businesses, neither are a lot of cheap name-brand PCs used in businesses today. (As far as judgements go, it's interesting that many people say it must have a floppy, and also that they currently use a Zip!) >>Since the iMac will be attractive to businesses - it'll be interesting >>to see how both an "iMac" and "server" fit into the "business computer" >>category... > >There will be businesses that are >looking for something that is more "consumer" in style (think reception >desks). That's perfectly in line with the professional-consumer model of >the product line. Given that the iMac is not aimed at businesses, whatever Apple does bring to businesses in this bracket will be interesting. >But of course none of this is relevant to Rhapsody, which is most certainly >Pro(fessional), as opposed to Con(sumer), which is where the MacOS will sit >better. I would argue that multiprocessor support, unix, development tools and server tools are not needed by the consumer. The rest of Rhapsody would be fine. Rhapsody-Or-MacOS needs a better reason than history. Fortunately the 2 might cease to be differentiated much by tomorrow. >MacOS will also be in the Pro space -- the rumblings in Mac the Knife and >elsewhere suggest that Yellow Box on Mac OS will become more important than >previously thought. If true, this implies that Yellow Box on Mac OS exists >and its CR1 will probably ship around the same time Rhapsody CR1 ships. I have the distinct fear that Apple is going to allow hybrid MacOSapi-YB apps possible, so developers don't need to make a clean YB application. It would only be portable to platforms supporting the MacOSapi (and explains rumors of StarTrek resurrection...). I can't decide if this would help or kill Apple. Greg From scott at cacti.org Sun May 10 22:02:34 1998 From: scott at cacti.org (Scott Stevenson) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: PC hardware vs Mac hardware... (was Re: Elison) Message-ID: <199805110452.VAA13367@proxy3.ba.best.com> >But I believe most everyone would agree with you. Apple should be trying to >shatter performance levels of current machines with each new generation of >machines. Price, performance, price, performance, make up your mind! :) - Scott ------ Scott Stevenson scott@cacti.org http://www.cacti.org <-- Macintosh & Rhapsody Resources From Lionel.Costa at socgen.com Mon May 11 02:40:12 1998 From: Lionel.Costa at socgen.com (Lionel COSTA) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Steve's "Home Server" concept and Rhapsody Message-ID: <05FAB3556C77C048*/c=FR/admd=ATLAS/prmd=SG/o=INFI/s=COSTA/g=LIONEL/@MHS> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1169 bytes Desc: not available Url : /mailman/archive/macosx-talk/attachments/19980511/f2d70d9c/attachment.ksh From mop45458 at mail.telepac.pt Mon May 11 05:40:15 1998 From: mop45458 at mail.telepac.pt (Luis Oliveira) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Rhapsody for Intel installation Message-ID: <3556F1AF.AEEE8444@mail.telepac.pt> Hi guys, I'm fairly new to this, and I don't know if this is the right place to put this question Anyway I need help I've just received a copy of Rhapsody for Intel DR1 (at last, now that DR2 is coming out). I have a system that has Windows NT , and Linux RedHat installed in a 5Gb IDE hard disk, which is the master device on the primary controller. I have another 7 Gb hard disk which I intend to be used by Rhapsody? Presently it is the master device of the secondary controller. Is there any way to boot rhapsody from the boot loader of NT? What should I do to do that, because I cannot find a way to boot from this device? Can I boot from the Install disquette and the specify the boot device at the boot prompt that appears? Thanks in advance Luis Oliveira From lavoie at cst.ca Mon May 11 06:03:11 1998 From: lavoie at cst.ca (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: iMac floppies solved In-Reply-To: <199805082153.QAA03510@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: At 14:54 -0700 5/8/1998, Jonathan Hendry wrote: >http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/980508/imation_2_1.html > >Next problem? a- Shipping it with the iMacs. Bundled. Or better yet, built-in. b- Make it optional on the presumed NC model. (I'm still a strong beleiver that iMac simply isn't primarely designed as a consumer appliance). Martin-Gilles Lavoie | "No! Try not. Do, or do not. Mac OS programmer, CS&T | There is no try." lavoie@cst.ca | -- Yoda on error handling From lavoie at cst.ca Mon May 11 06:06:06 1998 From: lavoie at cst.ca (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Dev program expiration... In-Reply-To: <199805082318.SAA03569@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: At 16:21 -0700 5/8/1998, Jonathan Hendry wrote: >Folks, > >My developer membership ends this month. How does Apple handle that? > >Will they notify me and let me renew? > >Thanks, > >- Jon They usually notify you a couple of months in advance. If you haven't had a letter yet, you might want to contact DTS to enquiry about the statrus of your membership, and to confirm your mailing address. For some reason, Apple doesn't seem to use a single centralised address database for such things, and it's quite possible one department has a wrong address. You might want to check that out, too. Martin-Gilles Lavoie | "No! Try not. Do, or do not. Mac OS programmer, CS&T | There is no try." lavoie@cst.ca | -- Yoda on error handling From lavoie at cst.ca Mon May 11 07:09:35 1998 From: lavoie at cst.ca (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: [offtopic] looking for pointers (or help) w/ color slab Message-ID: Appologies for this off-topic question. I have a color slab that I seem to have messed up at home. Whenever I log-in (as root--there are no other users on that machine), WorkSpace Manager doesn't load up (or display). Pointers or info apreciated (I couldn't find something in NeXTAnswers about this) The screen remains blue-ish and the system appears to be locked up. I can enter the monitor (Command-Command-~) and restart, but I'll end up in the same situation. As a background, my NetInfo DB seems to have been messed up at some point. I made some repairs (fixed IDs and the like), but I think I erroneously changed the IP address of the 'localHost' entry of the slab's NIS record. Could that be related? ** PLEASE DONT REPLY IN THE MAILING LIST ** Martin-Gilles Lavoie | "No! Try not. Do, or do not. Mac OS programmer, CS&T | There is no try." lavoie@cst.ca | -- Yoda on error handling From setzer at backfence.net Mon May 11 01:16:13 1998 From: setzer at backfence.net (Setzer Family) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Steve's "Home Server" concept and Rhapsody In-Reply-To: <199805110955.CAA05617@ignem.omnigroup.com> Message-ID: FWIW, yesterday I watched a close friend wire the house he's building with CAT 5 twisted pair wire to every room. That home isn't particularly expensive ($170,000 U.S.), and he's not some kind of super-rich software mogul--he's a contract tech writer. A neighbor, who's a postman, hooked up his machine to his son's via Thinnet so they can play games together--this in a "starter home" worth at best $120,000. The LAN-in-the-home is already here. As people buy new machines and migrate the old to their kids, they want a simple way to connect them all. Backup,central print services, etc--all are meaningful to a small home LAN. Home users need manageability, too, even if they're really unlikely to buy CA-Unicenter or suchlike. Rhapsody might well fit the bill. Steve From rmd103 at psu.edu Mon May 11 08:21:35 1998 From: rmd103 at psu.edu (RM DAscenzo) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Steve's "Home Server" concept and Rhapsody In-Reply-To: <199805110955.CAA05645@ignem.omnigroup.com> Message-ID: >Many people has already a computer (PC or Mac) at home that includes PCI >and all the features that the iMac "lacks". >But the iMac could be the real begining of the steve's (and larry's!) >"home server" concept. Since several of my relatives are home builders, a couple years or so ago I looked into the idea of household area networks (HANs). I thought I might be able to leverage some of the homebuilder connections into consulting or design fees. Ultimately it didn't make sense to leave school to pursue this but it's always in the back of my head. The model still makes as much sense to me know as it did then. Only now the technical barriers are dropping as things become more standardized and accepted. The idea of municipal servers for things like community information, public library catalog access, sports organization details, as well as for use by the school district for email, internet access, or whatever also seemed possible. I think the market is huge. The main requirement for these machines would be ease of administration and use. I can't imagine every town bringing a sys admin on board, but someone from accoutning or public relations with some technical skill might just be able to keep such a set-up running reliably. >And that's where Rhapsody fits in: >Rhapsody should be the easiest "consumer server OS" that even work on the >old PCs you bought a year ago (where NT5 couldn't) ! >A server OS that help daddy and mummy to be the home network >administrators, with network game install, network multimedia >presentation, Internet Firewall, ... Theres no NT penetration into markets that don't even exist yet, and if Apple can deliver Rhapsody on high enough powered hardware.... -ron From rcfa at cubiculum.com Mon May 11 08:45:06 1998 From: rcfa at cubiculum.com (Ronald C.F. Antony) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: WWDC Session Notes In-Reply-To: <199805110635.QAA04686@fep2.mail.ozemail.net> References: <199805110635.QAA04686@fep2.mail.ozemail.net> Message-ID: <9805111545.AA26050@kannix.cubiculum.com> [Moved here from rhapsody-dev, where it does not belong. About the desirability of having an ADOBE BRAND PDFViewer over just any other high-quality PDFViewer. If you want to see the start of this, peruse the archives.... Ronald] > 1) Bugs Not relevant to why *ADOBE* is important. Low number of bugs is important no matter what. Generally, smaller software companies in this market place have a much better track record of fixing bugs and putting out frequent maintenance release than any of the big companies I know of. OpenBase, Omni and Stone are exemplary of fixing bugs as they are discovered and reported. I hope they can keep that up, as they may grow bigger in a new and enlarged market. > 2) Market perceptions. Somewhat important, no doubt. But the discussion was about why we need an Adobe PDF viewer rather than a third party one, and not if we should need an endorsement of Rhapsody by large software houses. So while I agree, that wasn't the point. It would be much more important to see things that are NOT AVAILABLE AT ALL, such as Adobe Premiere, than it is to see things to which there are great native OpenStep alternatives such as Illustrator -> Create, Photoshop -> TIFFanyIII, Acrobat -> PDFView, OmniPDF. Of course, choice is always positive, but I'd be happier if Adobe and other bigwigs enter the market a bit slower and give those people a chance who allowed the platform to survive up till now and who have 100% native YB solutions and don't muscle some Latitude port onto us by virtue of brand-name persuasion. > 3) Cross platform issues. Distilling a PS file to PDF under MacOS, UNIX > or Win32 generates a very similiar file. The Acrobat Distiller on each Different product. We were talking about PDF viewers. > What do i get from a 3rd partly distiller?...god only knows. PDF in any case is just an approximation of the original, trying to make do with whatever resources are available on the target system which may be completely different from the originating system. If precision in the output really matters THAT MUCH, then people should stick with PS to begin with, which will be no problem under Rhapsody, since we have DPS and PS all over anyway. Besides that however, there are certainly guidelines as to how things should be converted. If such guidelines do not exist, then Adobe deserves some whipping, since it undermines the whole purpose of a file format like PDF. So then, if a third party distiller does not conform to the guidelines, it's a bug. If Adobe does not conform, it's also a bug, regardless how consistent that bug may be across platforms. If both adhere to the guidelines, then any and all variations between the Adobe and 3rd party versions is something the people should be able to live with, since there is no guarantee that Adobe would not e.g. produce a similar result to the third party distiller with their next software version. Where the specs are ambiguous, the ambiguity has to be planned in by any reasonable user of the software. The fact that by chance at some point in time there are predictable results resulting from an ambiguity is a bad basis to act upon when it comes to making decisions for the future. > Also, converting a PDF back into an EPS (or PS) file is very predictable > across Adobe's different versions. Again, what do i get from a 3rd party > solution?...god knows. Same argument as above. > 4) 3rd party developer support. Under MacOS and Win32 there are many > plugins avaliable for Acrobat Reader and Exchange. Its seems unlikely > that many of these plugins will be ported to Rhapsody if Adobe aren't > supporting Rhapsody with their own PDF tools and Acrobat for Rhapsody SDK. They may be used, but users of such things are morons, in my opinion. Anything that undermines an open standard by means of proprietary extensions should be avoided. It's like all the retarded HTML, JavaScript, Java, RealAudio, etc. extensions for the web. The web was created to be a cross platform solution, and all the proprietary crap just managed it to cripple it down to a two platform solution: Win* and Mac. And the fact that the Mac is supported is just due to the luck circumstance that a lot of the web's content is created on Macs. If the Mac were not so strong in the publishing market and e.g. would sell the same numbers e.g. in banking, then you can bet that you'd have a hard time finding a RealAudio plugin for a Mac browser. Every proprietary extension to any cross-platform solution is just a care-package to poor starving Bill in Seattle at the cost of everyone else in the computing world. They may just be to myopic to see it. > 5) Support for some of those "proprietary, undocumented extensions" may > not be important to you, but for many people those features are > fundamental. See above. > 6) Many prepress sites that do large amounts of PDF work (i.e newspapers) > simply won't trust a non Adobe PDF solution. Stupid? Maybe. But thats the > truth. No doubt about it (stupidity and truth). As someone said: "You can never be too bullish on human stupidity". And Karl Kraus said: "The devil is an optimist, if he thinks he can make people worse than they are." > Need more reasons? Just ask, i'll be happy to offer some up. No need. I get the idea. Doesn't mean I do agree any more than before. > > To think that a PDF viewer would be better just because it is written by > > Adobe, is a total and utter illusion. > > And to think it WON'T be better is just as much an illusion. < Da capo al fine... > PS: As far as insults go "you're a sucker" isn't really much of an > effort, so try to do better next time. ok. Honestly, this wasn't meant as a personal insult, but as a reference to the old con-man saying "A sucker's born every minute and one to cheat him". In that context, as I wrote later, the con-men are the companies who extract money out of people because of their blind faith in so-called brand-name products. 95% of people buy MS products because they are MS products. And after all they have to be good and innovative, how else could it be that MS is the market leader and everyone else is buying their stuff. Of course, as everyone on that list should know by now, MS products certainly have not that market penetrance due to their individual merit, stability, technical excellence or low number of bugs... Capitalism presumes free markets (goods, capital AND LABOR) and rational decisions making. We neither have free markets as all the immigration laws and duties the world over show, nor do we have rational decision making. For that we just need to look at human nature and at the advertisement industry that tries to weed out the last trace of rational behavior in consumers. Where that combination ultimately leads is hard to say, but certainly no place good. It's always easy to go where everyone else is going, and more difficult to do what's right, even if it's as trivial as building a web site without Javascript, Java, RealAudio and animated GIFs... Ronald ============================================================================== "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." G.B. Shaw | rcfa@cubiculum.com | NeXT-mail welcome From lavoie at cst.ca Mon May 11 11:21:47 1998 From: lavoie at cst.ca (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Date: Thu Nov 3 15:59:19 2005 Subject: Excerpt from MacNN Message-ID: Mac NN has a coverage of the WWDC. I found this particularely frightning: >MacOS > ------------- > 'The most important peice of software we've got". > MacOS has 12,000 Applications. Far from something they should > discard. It needs to be polished and extended. > > "What was this rhapsody thing?" "Rhapsody was some great >technology, > it ran some old apps and some new apps" When you ran the >blue box > under this thing, you didn't get any of the new features. > > Rhapsody was great technology but it wasn't good enough. > > They want an advanced OS that wants Mac Apps. > > Protective Memory > Moderdern Protective memory > Preemptive Multi-Tasking > Multi Threading. > > "We set out to Just Do it" Er... somebody enlighten me. Did they just Coplan-ed Rhapsody? Was OpenStep just Steeved? What have I been learning all this time? What about YB? Cross platformability? Martin-Gilles Lavoie | "No! Try not. Do, or do not. Mac OS programmer, CS&T |